To think academic success truly does not matter

[Hotstuff18]

Firstly, this isn’t sour grapes. I went to a very prestigious RG university and was always the annoying girl with my hand up at school (ah misspent youth 😂). However, in almost all the adults I know now their academic outcomes have had literally no bearing on their lives now in their late 30’s and early 40’s. In my own life, my A’s at A level count for absolutely nothing when my part time teacher salary is absolutely dwarfed by my non academic DH’s who spent most of his time at school messing around and smoking behind the bike sheds. At work, a lot of my colleagues didn’t do that well in their own exams and now do the exact same job as me. Many friends who work in trade jobs having left school at 16 earn very impressive salaries meanwhile others with top grades in their exams earn low money. One particular example that always sticks out to me is a lady who lives down the street, who’s also a teacher, absolutely bombed her exams as she spent the whole time partying (whilst I spent most of year 13 diligently writing up notes and doing practice essays) and yet we ended up living on the same street doing the exact same job. I’m not bitter about this at all, I absolutely love my life however, I do regret not just having more fun at school and not worrying about my grades because it really hasn’t paid off. Obviously, for certain jobs such as medicine too grades are needed but for the vast majority it truly doesn’t matter at all. I have definitely learned my lesson on it with my own DC and have never excessively pushed them and my main priority has always been their social progress/happiness at school rather than grades, which I think will honestly stand them in far better stead than getting all 9’s in their GCSE’s. Aibu?

Well, that’s your own limitation speaking, surely, if you think people only go to university to earn more.

I think it matters in actual professions where you need ongoing qualifications (doctor, lawyer, solicitor etc).

But I totally agree with you the greatest prize I see for my kids is that they are confident, happy and able to make good relationships with other people. If being a doctor helps them with that then great and if not then great.

Also like you I was academic at school and got amazing grades, also went to a top RG uni, and also have ended up not particularly making the most of it (civil servant). I do kind of wish I had received better advice about how to use my grades - my mum didn’t push me at all which was great but I also feel I missed out a bit on properly thinking about what a successful future would look like for me. In truth I do sometimes wish I had gone into something more professional like being a lawyer or architect, which would have given me more money but also I think a greater sense of fulfilment and achievement (I struggle with my current job as it’s very soft skill and people management based and I think I’d do better if I had actual objective skills and knowledge in a particular field). Perhaps in turn that could have led to more confidence and happiness in my case? But would it be the same for my kids? It’s hard to know.

Academic success was my way out of poverty, as it is for a lot of people. It's not a magic bullet in all cases but to say it doesn't matter is patently untrue.

I’m currently doing a masters because I can’t forget my career without one. It’s bonkers that 10 years of direct experience and 10 years of indirect but linked experience isn’t enough and I need to spend £££££ to get a piece of paper. Currently wondering if I even want the promotion.

"I do regret not just having more fun at school".

You were silly to not have both. That's what you really should be examining. Why you never had the balance, why are you can't have fun and studying and getting good grades and getting the career and life you want, all at the same time.

It matters if you want to be a doctor, vet or dentist.

Whilst, yes, you can get into decent jobs/professions without stellar academic qualifications, it's usually going to be harder/longer, etc.

There's really no substitute for the traditional way, i.e. GCSE>A Level>Degree>Professional Body, if you want to accelerate yourself into a a profession with decent pay, prospects, options, etc., or for the non academic, it's GCSE>College of FE>Trade Body to become say an electrician or gas engineer.

There are some jobs where you can start with nothing and work your way up. Retail, business, hospitality, window cleaning…… and if you’ve got the right sort of brain and attitude, you can end up either owning your own company or being very high up in someone else’s with salary and perks to match.

And there are others where you just can’t. Medicine, law, nursing, architecture, being an academic. Try doing one of them without going the academic route and see how you get on.

I agree, I think for most people, it's perfectly possible to have a decent balance during the education years. Getting top grades doesn't mean you have to study 24/7 and have no "life", no hobbies, etc.

Trouble is, as always, we hear more of the extremes, i.e. the "nerds" who literally do nothing but read, and at the other extreme, those who never do their homework, never concentrate in class, etc.

It really depends. I went to a private school 3 years) and state school 2 years). I should’ve gone to uni at least with my French according to teachers but due to bullying and other issues ended up leaving and taking private tuition 6 months before GCSEs which meant that I took a fraction of what I should’ve taken (straight A student). I could’ve studied afterwards but got an admin job at 17 where I’ve mostly stayed ever since apart from retraining as legal secretary.

I do regret not going to uni as your prospects in admin I think are limited. I now want to help a relative with admin with his own business but this’ll take at least 5 years for this to get off the ground and that’s if it succeeds. The people who I do know who’ve succeeded without qualifications one lied his way to the top and others springboarded as far as they could go.

You are right to an extent. Motivation and work ethic together with a desire to climb a ladder and succeed is paramount which is what my DH did. He left school with zero O levels as he messed around. Now wishes he hadn’t as it took him 13 years of studying part time to get his degree which was a long slog. He needed this in the end as the top jobs he was aiming for always asked for a degree.
I would never tell my children that qualifications don't matter - they do. Often companies take on Graduates and they fly because they are ‘a graduate’ and not always because they’re amazing.

A balance is needed, I tell my children to do their best, always. But also have lots of fun.

if they’re determined to have a specific career , they will get there in the end, there’s always different paths and options nowadays.

I think it's very important to teach my children to work hard and do the best they can. I was clever, academic and not interested in partying and did very well. I have never earned much but I don't think money = success. Does it matter that I did well at school? Maybe not in terms of where I've ended up, but it matters to me. If I'd coasted along and done well-enough, but not as well as I knew I could have done, I'd be ashamed.

My problem with these debates is that it’s really privileged. It’s ok us saying education doesn’t matter here in the uk but for literally millions of people around the world, education can have a profound impact on your life. Globally, yes, education is important. And I’d also in a pluralistic sense, it benefits society generally if we have some very educated people in the mix, we don’t all have to be them though, and certainly people can be happy and successful without qualifications if they have the right enabling environment. I am totally on board with not pushing kids to breaking point over GCSEs though.

I think this depends. I am very academic and was a high achiever. I would also be hopeless at the practical trades skills you are talking about - so academic success has been my route to a comfortable and interesting life. That might not be true for others. I guess following your own strengths may be what is most important?

"One particular example that always sticks out to me is a lady who lives down the street, who’s also a teacher, absolutely bombed her exams as she spent the whole time partying (whilst I spent most of year 13 diligently writing up notes and doing practice essays) and yet we ended up living on the same street doing the exact same job. "

She must have managed a degree or some kind of teaching qualification though. It doesn't make sense that she would have no qualifications at all.

I do the same job as an old school friend who skived all through GCSEs and left at 16. I don't begrudge her at all, but maybe I should have worked harder than just turning up and revising a bit.

My younger brother and I both work in the same field, although different jobs. I always did better than him in exams, but he is more popular and was able to use his connections to get a much higher paying job than I’ve ever managed.
Academic success might open up some opportunities for you but you need either a strong and proven work ethic, charisma to blag job interviews, or know the right people to really grasp them, IME.

You're right OP. Obviously for some professions you do need great grades, but I know so many people who mucked around at school and earn more than me, especially in jobs like Sales and business development.

More fool me!

This is why I'm quite sceptical about telling children they don't need qualifications. They need them more than ever because everyone has them now. Gone are the days when you could leave school at 14 and work your way up.

Window cleaning? Aren't they usually very modest one-man businesses?
Even in hospitality people study for qualifications so someone trying to work their way up would be competing with qualified people who may also have the experience.

A maths degree opened a lot of doors for my husband, has always worked and always in demand. Worked as a checkout person in a petrol station at night whilst a student.

"I do regret not going to uni as your prospects in admin I think are limited. "

Most people in admin now have a degree so it's not a way out at all. At least where I live, you need a masters in something very useful to get a better job.

Interesting. I read somewhere (can't find it now) that young women are more likely to pursue higher education than young men are, as they have less opportunity to earn good money straight off, typically in trades. Girls get higher grades at school, but I don't know if this is ability, focus, motivation, or what - perhaps the boys don't bother as they know they can earn money anyway.

My parents are immigrants who did manually jobs, who heavily pushed us into education and as a result:

1. Mum retrained as a maths lecturer at a local college, well paid/flexible within reason.
2. Me (corporate in STEM) works 4 days from home and 1 day office, well paid and opportunities for progression.
3. Younger sister (corporate in STEM) fully remote.

Without our education, we couldn't do our jobs today. We'd still be working class and in low paid jobs which required 5 days office.

At work, a lot of my colleagues didn’t do that well in their own exams and now do the exact same job as me
Presumably you've chosen to work in a field where you didn't need to use your education, but that choice was yours to make.

Your colleagues wouldn't have had such freedom of choice.

I think it’s a big difference between those that went to uni pre deregulation of university, and those that went post Tony Blair’s big expansion where, frankly, a lot of kids would have been better not to go and get straight into work

Rarely were truer words said; as my mum used to comment, we need brickies as well as brain surgeons and all Blair's "everyone muist have prizes" did was to saddle a generation with pointless debt for often pointless degrees they'd never use

And all just to massage the unemployment figures ...