To think academic success truly does not matter

[Hotstuff18]

Firstly, this isn’t sour grapes. I went to a very prestigious RG university and was always the annoying girl with my hand up at school (ah misspent youth 😂). However, in almost all the adults I know now their academic outcomes have had literally no bearing on their lives now in their late 30’s and early 40’s. In my own life, my A’s at A level count for absolutely nothing when my part time teacher salary is absolutely dwarfed by my non academic DH’s who spent most of his time at school messing around and smoking behind the bike sheds. At work, a lot of my colleagues didn’t do that well in their own exams and now do the exact same job as me. Many friends who work in trade jobs having left school at 16 earn very impressive salaries meanwhile others with top grades in their exams earn low money. One particular example that always sticks out to me is a lady who lives down the street, who’s also a teacher, absolutely bombed her exams as she spent the whole time partying (whilst I spent most of year 13 diligently writing up notes and doing practice essays) and yet we ended up living on the same street doing the exact same job. I’m not bitter about this at all, I absolutely love my life however, I do regret not just having more fun at school and not worrying about my grades because it really hasn’t paid off. Obviously, for certain jobs such as medicine too grades are needed but for the vast majority it truly doesn’t matter at all. I have definitely learned my lesson on it with my own DC and have never excessively pushed them and my main priority has always been their social progress/happiness at school rather than grades, which I think will honestly stand them in far better stead than getting all 9’s in their GCSE’s. Aibu?

Qualifications are only of value if you have connections to help you get a job, or if you’re likeable and people feel a rapport with you so they give you opportunities. Both of those things count for way more than your actual grades.

Money talks and connections open doors. Loads of people from poor backgrounds were encouraged to get expensive degrees but then found they didn’t have the middle class connections to get jobs afterwards.

I know someone who failed their degree but did well because Daddy bought them a company to run. I know someone with a PhD who couldn’t get hired despite genius level intelligence because they’re autistic. I know someone who pretty much runs their employer’s company while the employer (who knows fuck all about the business he inherited) just swans off on holiday several times a year. I know someone who qualified as a solicitor but ended up working in Asda, because they were raised on benefits so they didn’t have professional connections who could help them get jobs.

So no, qualifications don’t really matter. The government and teachers and others like to pretend that they do matter. They like to pretend that the world is fair. All that does is give hard working kids a shock when they realise the truth, and encourage them to waste £££ on qualifications that won’t get them anywhere.

Yeah l know that too. Don’t know where this research came from.

A good teacher is one of the best predictions of academic success.

Qualifications are only of value if you have connections to help you get a job, or if you’re likeable and people feel a rapport with you so they give you opportunities. Both of those things count for way more than your actual grades

l know plenty of people with no connections and degrees. They all have good jobs. I completely disagree.

DH left school and joined the army at 16 and now aged 59 earns three times my salary, and I am well paid! He also gets bonuses and stock options. One of the key reasons for the difference is private sector vs public sector. I didn't go to uni when I left school, but now have a BSc, PGCE, MEd, MA and I'm working on my EdD. That won't help me earn any more either!

@kitsuneghost No - he wasn't giving up on his education. He was on track to get those grades. The head was just really disdainful that he'd decided to be a (god forbid!) plumber when he could have aimed for something much more meaningful. The point I was making was that lots of schools/school leaders still massively favour academic routes and genuinely look down their nose on anything other than that. She was also clearly conscious of the negative impact this boy's choice to become a plumber rather than use his good GCSE results on something worthy like the standard A-levels/undergrad degree route would have on the school's stats.

Something happens that we no longer need plumbers? OK, so the Apocalypse? In which case we will only need people who know how to grow/forage for food. Your highly paid academics will be as badly off as the rest of us. I have seen the distain myself for plumbers - posh ignorant local woman's absolute disbelief that a mere plumber could have an intelligent discussion about anything other than football. But without people like him, and other tradespeople, this woman would be living in a cave. My electrician used to be head of cyber security at a Swiss bank but he decided to ditch the stress of that job, moved back to the UK and retrained as an electrician.

I agree that trades are under appreciated and have spoken to my DC’s about this. DD is at university and DS is likely to go, but being qualified as an electrician, for example, is still v. useful. My FIL is a retired engineer and also a qualified electrician. He’s saved his children a ton of money!

It's incredibly difficult to generalise about this. But as an overall comment, YABU. Academic success to a general level is pretty important.

Some careers are effectively closed to you if you're not academic. (Medicine, law, finance). Some careers technically don't require academics but in practice do because they are so competitive that they can choose anyone so why would they choose someone without a degree (media, arts, charities). If you leave school with literally no qualifications at all, as in no GCSEs, you won't get far and are pretty much consigned to minimum wage unless you are flukishly lucky.

It's very true that you can make a large amount of money without academic excellence. A lot of trades (plumbing, electricians) are very well paid and require limited academics (though you'd still need GCSEs). There will always be someone along to tell you their husband/brother/best mate finished school with no GCSEs and not makes over £100k pa. And there are rare people who by fluke make a lot of money by starting and building businesses who have no qualifications. But let's be honest, these people are the exception to the rule.

But also having passed some exams gives you the self-discipline and the critical thinking ability to learn something. So I think the myth that academic success is completely irrelevant is just that. It's not a guarantee of success and it isn't absolutely essential. But it does significantly increase your chances of doing better.

A friend of mine owns a successful building company. He's a millionaire, works hard and is very happy and fulfilled. He's bright but messed around at school, got into some scrapes with the law, got kicked out by his parents in his late teens because of all the rows, left school with pretty much no qualifications etc.

He's an example of someone who has made it, despite failing academically.
However, for every one of him, I suspect there are thousands of identical teens who most certainly aren't happy, successful and fulfilled.

In general it's best to do well at school, opens more doors, and makes happiness and fulfilment more likely.

Then they fall into the second category, and are obviously likeable and popular so people feel a rapport with them. If you’re not getting handed a job on a plate, then you need to be a social butterfly to convince someone to hire you. If you’re not well connected or likeable/popular then you’re screwed and it’s a waste of time getting qualifications.

There's quite a lot of evidence that graduates in general earn more than non-graduates. And that graduates from Russell Group universities in general earn more. Of course there are lots of exceptions. And builders/plumbers can earn a lot of money too. However they are skilled trades. And it's probably just as hard/harder being a successful builder/plumber as a successful lawyer! Also people who earn a lot and don't have academic qualifications probably have a lot of ambition/determination/other skills. So I guess it makes sense for parents to try and get their children a good education/ensure they work hard in school, though it's definitely not a guarantee of financial success.Using graduate earnings to assess universities | Institute for Fiscal Studies (ifs.org.uk)

A close relative of mine in his 20s left school with no paper qualifications at all. He now manages a residential and outreach facility for young people with problems of one sort or another (ASD etc.). He is brilliant at his job and got there because he had commitment and empathy. He now in fact employs his own mother who is a a highly qualified teacher!!

I have loads of good academic qualifications from prestigious universities and as you can tell by my username, I’m the family waster. A highly educated waster but they consider me a waster nonetheless.

i loved my degrees and the knowledge and experiences it has brought me. I’m great in a pub quiz but I don’t earn megabucks, I’m too old to enter new careers now that would bring me megabucks and poor health has kept me working in jobs that allowed flexibility for hospital appointments but didn’t pay well.

university should be learning how to learn and about developing skills to apply in real life, not learning for a job or a wage bracket.

In my pub quiz team there are an electrician and a postman and a lorry driver - they are the ones who have the extensive general and cultural knowledge - I just sit there and um and ah ......

I don't believe lack of academic success can stop you from financial success in later life if that is what you want - but academic success can give you choices and you might find the path to financial success easier on that route.

I totally agree with you. In my experience the really high earners are entrepreneurs who were naughty at school / didn’t fit in or do well. I come across so many people who have a degree in low paid jobs. Obviously it’s not that black and white but as a generalisation I think you’re spot on.

This is just not true in many cases. I wouldn't have been able to qualify as a solicitor without a degree and further study and although have given it up now, I earned far more than people I knew who hadn't gone to uni and ended up in low paid jobs with no prospects and this is reflected now in our lifestyles (private schools, multiple expensive holiday etc ). Not saying this to boast but to make the point that your education absolutely can make a huge difference to your life path.

DH works in a bank and says all their interns and graduates went to Oxbridge or top RG.

Tradesmen can absolutely earn a lot of money but they pay the price with their health from what I've read. It's a much harder life in some ways.

Having said all that money doesn't make you happy in itself but gives you more options in life and freedom from having to worry about the bills.

Yes and no. My husband hates school and left with no GCSE’s, joined the army and learnt a trade. He now earns a very healthy salary on civi street and loves his job so in that sense you’re right. However, in order for him to progress further he would need an degree, something that isn’t feasible while working full time with a young family.
On the other hand, I have a degree and earn an average salary. My career has been stalled by taking time out to stay home with my children. But, when I was ready to return to the workplace I do believe my degree and previous experience got me back on the ladder.
I will encourage my children to go into higher education but only if they want to do something like law or medicine etc. if they want to go to do a “party” degree like I did I’d probably suggest an apprenticeship of some sort to be honest.

Depends on the job. My firsts job in consulting, they only recruited from 6 universities in the UK (Oxbridge, LSE, UCL, Imperial and I think Edinburgh). Literally if you were not from those, your CV went in the bin, they didn't even read it. (I know, as HR briefed us juniors to put the CVs in piles!). So in those kinds of jobs or industries (also the top law firms), then academic results do matter.
Same for things like investment banking - they will recruit from the top unis.
But other than that, probably not - it's more the quality of the work experience etc.
I am also putting less pressure on my children than I put on myself, for this reason!

Depends entirely on the plans are for what to do with it
Clearly for some jobs academic qualifications are essential; for others they show an ability to commit/focus on a programme of whatever, but they're certainly not the be all and end all

Then you get those for whom some pointless degree is just a way to avoid the rigours of paid work, and that really is a waste of time ...

I think most people who go into STEM careers need their degrees. I couldn’t have had my career without my chemistry degree, nor could my db without his hydrology doctorate , or my other brother with his engineering degree. My youngest son couldn’t do what he does currently without his masters in a very specialist science area.

my eldest son has a history degree- matters not a jot what degree was in, but got onto civil service fast track straight form uni that has given him a flying first 9 years in work - couldn’t have done that without a good career

but he knows, and I knew loads of folks through work, where kids come out of uni with degrees that don’t give them any head start and end up struggling to get work in anything other than temp, contract roles for years or in jobs they don’t need a degree for. I think it’s a big difference between those that went to uni pre deregulation of university, and those that went post Tony Blair’s big expansion where, frankly, a lot of kids would have been better not to go and get straight into work

ive met lots of folks without degrees in my life - and I agree success is not down to having a degree. It is down to, imho, having capability, abilities to learn, drive, tanacity and a tolerance for boredom/routine slog . But in a lot of fields that goes hand in hand with having a degree. And in many fields you shouldn’t bother with a degree at all - and maybe take an apprentice route

And yes there are many “clever” people with degrees that are just pants at working outside academia and lack any common sense . I’ve met a few with phDs that seem utterly stupid frankly 🤷🏼‍♀️ But I’ve met a lot of amazingly intelligent people who flunked school.

on balance, for most “average” people having a degree, in long term , does mean better prospects in the long run. But it’s an average.

Grades don't matter, academic success doesn't matter, the school system as it is is an archaic institution, and the curriculum is not fit for the future of the humankind. What matters is teaching the children life skills, critical thinking, how to use technology to their advantage, empathy, social skills and independence. That is my view and the way I am raising my children.

What matters most in adult life, whatever you are doing, is the ability to get on with other people and to communicate effectively.

That said, academic success is useful. However there are other skills than purely academic ones. You don't need to be academic above a certain level to fit kitchens or drive a lorry and you'll make a lot of money at it.