To think academic success truly does not matter

[Hotstuff18]

Firstly, this isn’t sour grapes. I went to a very prestigious RG university and was always the annoying girl with my hand up at school (ah misspent youth 😂). However, in almost all the adults I know now their academic outcomes have had literally no bearing on their lives now in their late 30’s and early 40’s. In my own life, my A’s at A level count for absolutely nothing when my part time teacher salary is absolutely dwarfed by my non academic DH’s who spent most of his time at school messing around and smoking behind the bike sheds. At work, a lot of my colleagues didn’t do that well in their own exams and now do the exact same job as me. Many friends who work in trade jobs having left school at 16 earn very impressive salaries meanwhile others with top grades in their exams earn low money. One particular example that always sticks out to me is a lady who lives down the street, who’s also a teacher, absolutely bombed her exams as she spent the whole time partying (whilst I spent most of year 13 diligently writing up notes and doing practice essays) and yet we ended up living on the same street doing the exact same job. I’m not bitter about this at all, I absolutely love my life however, I do regret not just having more fun at school and not worrying about my grades because it really hasn’t paid off. Obviously, for certain jobs such as medicine too grades are needed but for the vast majority it truly doesn’t matter at all. I have definitely learned my lesson on it with my own DC and have never excessively pushed them and my main priority has always been their social progress/happiness at school rather than grades, which I think will honestly stand them in far better stead than getting all 9’s in their GCSE’s. Aibu?

I don't know how old you are but times have changed. Older managers in my last job were recruited and made their way to top with basic education. Nowadays bachelors is basically standard and so the grade might play more role since so many people have it.

I am surprised how many places ask for GSCEs though, but I am not from UK and find GCSE ridiculous a bit anyway, let alone the fact that someone will put out job ad with minimal grades requirement. Yeah totally important that someone got C 20 years ago😂

My academic achievements mean a lot to me, I don't need to talk about them unless I'm going for a job interview, but I'm proud of what I've achieved.

I don't have to accept others' opinions as to whether they are or are not truly unimportant, because they are, not because of what I own but who I have become through education and broadening my mind.

I was a military officer, which in the US requires a uni degree, usually in a technical field. I got to choose my specialty because of my academic record, and the military sent me to graduate school for my master's degree. My husband was a rocket scientist, yes literally, which required a few degrees, including Engineering and Math. Our daughter is a medical doctor, and you don't get into medical school in the states without a uni degree in a technical field, in her case Biochemistry, and you must have OUTSTANDING grades.

Our son, a software engineer, could have gotten a job in his field without a degree, but he got hired originally because of his computer science degree with high grades.

The bottom line is it depends on your field. Some people who go into sales etc., can be very successful without uni, but most professional jobs these days require academic success.

Apparently the most significant factor in an individual's success is the peer group - what was your peer group like @Hotstuff18 ?

Nobody I know in traditional high salary roles (some immediate examples I can think - very high up in NHS but not clinical, Banker, Barrister, Surveyor, GP) do not have a degree but I know plenty of people with degrees in traditionally more low ranking jobs (admin mainly - this includes me!)

Depends what you study. My job can’t be done without a bachelors and masters degree. Three A levels or equivalent were required for the bachelors and 5 GCSEs grade A to C Including Maths, English and science were required to do the A levels or equivalent. So basically yes, academics mattered. Obviously we all know people out-earning us who don’t know the times tables at ages 40 but they aren’t the norm.

You need to define ‘matter’.

i think by your OP that you mean financially.

Firstly, there is a correlation between academic success and earnings. There are lots of anecdotes on this thread, but they don’t trump statistics. This is especially true in STEM subjects.

Secondly, and more importantly, academic success means skills and knowledge, that make you a more confident and interesting person. I am far more impressed by academic than monetary success.

This is all so true. Some people are just unlucky despite making a massive effort.

I see people being promoted due to who they are friends with too.

It's given both my DC a lot of confidence, taught them how effort gives reward and has got them places at v good uni's thus mixing in quite different and wide social circles.
For their teenage and young adult mental health alone, academic success has mattered massively.

University is for further education and critical thinking, not always for a well paid job/career.

It depends on whether you're discussing it in purely financial terms. I did my degree in a subject I loved and still love and the opportunity to study it, discuss it and research it was fantastic. You can still do that without a degree, especially now with the internet but it was time well invested for me.

Rightly though, degrees aren't the be all and end all of being successful and/or happy - which is just as well as it incurs so much debt now for students .

Basically its down to what you do with your life.
Leave Cambridge with a 1st and become a teacher, you’ll earn the same as another teacher with a few gsce’s whose done a teacher training course
but noone with a few gcse’s will be getting a job in a magic circle law firm or an investment bank or a consulting firm etc.

The trouble is a degree (sometimes any degree) opens a door that might otherwise be kept shut. I think it’s unfair but it seems a vicious circle. Jobs demand irrelevant degrees so kids have to get irrelevant degrees. It’s not even easy to get an apprenticeship nowadays, you still have to have A levels unless it’s a job that isn’t really an apprenticeship but advertised as one (cafe worker job advertised recently).

Surely it depends what your motivation is.

Good qualifications are a result of a love of study, which is its own reward. The increased earning potential is a by product, not the main point. Yes, if your goal in life is to earn as much as possible and have financial success, then there are more effective ways to work towards that than academia, but that's because education is an end in itself.

I think the stats show do there is clear and significant correlation between a degree VS no degree and lifetime earnings. Also in terms of Oxbridge vs the rest and Russell Group vs the rest.

That said, of course, as ever, the stats don’t tell the whole story: The non-university group or the non-Russell Group etc undoubtedly includes a lot of very bright, very capable people - but their earning power gets “diluted” in the stats by the average/below average ability non-university attending people.

They are a foot in the door a lot of the time

Academic success is a means to an end, not an end in and of itself. I will agree with that. Until you get post masters level anyway.

However academic qualifications are a way to get good at something. You can be good at something without going through exams but you can't be good at things without learning.

People forget what the end they were working towards was when the look around and compare themselves to others.

Doesn't it depend on your choices of career? My friends who did dentistry, law, finance, all did well at school and make megabucks. They own their own homes (some even two), kids go private etc. Those who followed the teaching, science, anything public sector related (nhs doctors), make much less. I'm certainly going to be encouraging my children to do something lucrative so they can be set financially and I think to do this, they need to do reasonably well at school. I got a 2/2 but I was very driven afterwards to work so got by on experience

In most cases, it's for getting shitfaced and copping off. I speak from lived experience. Oh yes, and learning how to be independent too but you can do that in many other ways.

I am also a teacher and I have come to the realisation over the last few years that for a large number of people (by this, I mean those who don't go on to be doctors, lawyers, nuclear physicists etc), qualifications often don't really matter, no. That's not to say they aren't often useful, and they don't often help - I'm certainly not saying that they are entirely pointless (as someone said upthread, you often don't really know what you might need qualification-wise when you're at the age of taking them so it makes sense to get them just in case). But I know countless people who have done very well in life, financially and otherwise, without them.

I actually think it's appalling how many lies are told to anxious year 10s, 11s, 12s and 13s by schools about the importance of qualifications in their lives. I'm not exaggerating when I say that some schools literally tell students their life is over unless they get their GCSEs at the right grades. The motives behind these lies are highly questionable too...

We obviously went to different institutions.

I think it is quite complex. A lot depends on the personality of the individual.

Many degrees do not lead directly to employment, but employers do take it as an indication of ability to apply oneself and of a degree of academic intelligence. They often do not look at the actual knowledge base of the degree or its particular relevance to their field.

If young people have a particular interest in a career or a subject then it is worth the study.

I have 3 AC - none of them are pursuing a career that has any relevance to their degree subjects.

There are other important things to factor in. One is financial - a degree is a big investment and a lot of consideration needs to go into whether it is worth it.

The other is about happiness. It irks me that young people spend the very precious years of their youth slogging away at studies that might not benefit them in any way in the future. Especially as a lot of that takes place in the summer - revision and exams - when they would be better off out in the sunshine. Many academic young people are not necessarily happy - my late OH had a brain like a planet and qualifications collected like charms on a bracelet but it did not bring him happiness. And the suicides at university are a high price to pay for qualifications.

It is very important that non-academic qualifications are given the same emphasis and value as academic ones.

Happiness is not incompatible with serious study.

If you measure success by how much money one is earning, then maybe but I can confidently say that going to the university as a mature student and doing well academically changed my life in more ways than I could ever imagine. It gave me confidence, it opened many doors, it introduced me to a vast academic knowledge which completely changed the way I think. I am much more measured in my opinions, I am able to separate facts from fiction, I don't thoughtlessly jump on a bandwagon of the latest influencer trends (i.e. gluten is toxic, vaccines cause autism and other bollocks like that). I am a much happier and well-rounded person as a result.
Yes, my partner earns three times as much as I do as a builder. Even so, I wouldn't change my education for the world. I have plenty of fun in my life now so I don't ever feel like I missed out. I am, however, a big advocate for starting HE later in life so that one can get the most out of their university years rather than using a student loan and a bit of free time as an excuse to party.

In most cases, it's for getting shitfaced and copping off. I speak from lived experience.

@RobertaFirmino I can relate to that. 🤣 But, I think the uni experience has somewhat changed now that students have to pay thousands in tuition fees. You can’t just mess around when you/your parents are paying significant sums.

Haven't RTFT, but I agree with some PP’s that for certain careers, academic success is crucial. My DH changed fields several years ago by getting a Master’s, there’s no way he’d have been hired without it, because that degree taught him certain essential skills for that field.

So it all depends on your career.