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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think academic success truly does not matter

457 replies

Hotstuff18 · 29/08/2023 12:05

Firstly, this isn’t sour grapes. I went to a very prestigious RG university and was always the annoying girl with my hand up at school (ah misspent youth 😂). However, in almost all the adults I know now their academic outcomes have had literally no bearing on their lives now in their late 30’s and early 40’s. In my own life, my A’s at A level count for absolutely nothing when my part time teacher salary is absolutely dwarfed by my non academic DH’s who spent most of his time at school messing around and smoking behind the bike sheds. At work, a lot of my colleagues didn’t do that well in their own exams and now do the exact same job as me. Many friends who work in trade jobs having left school at 16 earn very impressive salaries meanwhile others with top grades in their exams earn low money. One particular example that always sticks out to me is a lady who lives down the street, who’s also a teacher, absolutely bombed her exams as she spent the whole time partying (whilst I spent most of year 13 diligently writing up notes and doing practice essays) and yet we ended up living on the same street doing the exact same job. I’m not bitter about this at all, I absolutely love my life however, I do regret not just having more fun at school and not worrying about my grades because it really hasn’t paid off. Obviously, for certain jobs such as medicine too grades are needed but for the vast majority it truly doesn’t matter at all. I have definitely learned my lesson on it with my own DC and have never excessively pushed them and my main priority has always been their social progress/happiness at school rather than grades, which I think will honestly stand them in far better stead than getting all 9’s in their GCSE’s. Aibu?

OP posts:
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Gwenhwyfar · 02/09/2023 10:52

"It's easy to arrange it in such a way that you earn very little on paper and so pay very little tax. "

But then it's illegal or at least immoral.

"The point here is not necessarily 'how many' are rich., It's the potential. "

Yes, but if we're talking about which occupations pay well, there's no point choosing one where one in ten thousand people make a lot of money. It's like saying that hairdressing pays well because Vidal Sasoon exists.
And nobody's claimed that general office work pays well have they?

MannekenP · 02/09/2023 11:09

Gwenhwyfar · 02/09/2023 10:52

"It's easy to arrange it in such a way that you earn very little on paper and so pay very little tax. "

But then it's illegal or at least immoral.

"The point here is not necessarily 'how many' are rich., It's the potential. "

Yes, but if we're talking about which occupations pay well, there's no point choosing one where one in ten thousand people make a lot of money. It's like saying that hairdressing pays well because Vidal Sasoon exists.
And nobody's claimed that general office work pays well have they?

It's not illegal. Immoral is another question. Self-employed people have no benefits unlike PAYE employees. Also their income is variable no work no pay. They are not Google, or Amazon with armies of lawyers and revenue in multiple countries.

You're right about pay well vs rich, and that's the exact point I was trying to make with PP. Which is also why I pointed out the difference in income calculations. It doesn't matter how many rich window cleaners there are, the point is what does 'average' window cleaner put into their pockets? The ones I know here in Greater Manchester can easily do 30K nett, which on PAYE would be about 40K gross. More if they get bigger jobs. Does that 'pay well'? You decide.

Gwenhwyfar · 02/09/2023 11:44

"It's not illegal. Immoral is another question. "

Being paid in cash and not declaring it was mentioned. That's illegal surely.
Paying yourself in profit rather than a wage is a different matter, but a few people got caught by that with Covid help didn't they?

MannekenP · 02/09/2023 12:25

Gwenhwyfar · 02/09/2023 11:44

"It's not illegal. Immoral is another question. "

Being paid in cash and not declaring it was mentioned. That's illegal surely.
Paying yourself in profit rather than a wage is a different matter, but a few people got caught by that with Covid help didn't they?

Yeah, that's what FIL did. I don't approve. But even without that, he'd have a decent amount.
The Covid help was the opposite problem, people who had done everything above board got no help thanks to the arcane rules. But people managed to commit fraud by setting up fake businesses.

heartofglass23 · 02/09/2023 17:09

What you are missing in this is gender.

Higher ed gets women up from caring/ cleaning jobs into office jobs. = more pay/ prospects

For working class men there are still plenty of trade jobs that pay more than graduate jobs. Getting a degree isn't so important for men. They don't have such a big pay gap between graduates and non graduates.

anonymousxoxo · 02/09/2023 17:49

heartofglass23 · 02/09/2023 17:09

What you are missing in this is gender.

Higher ed gets women up from caring/ cleaning jobs into office jobs. = more pay/ prospects

For working class men there are still plenty of trade jobs that pay more than graduate jobs. Getting a degree isn't so important for men. They don't have such a big pay gap between graduates and non graduates.

Exactly. The problem with working class men is their bodies work harder and get weaker in retirement In comparison to office worker jobs.

more women need to go into stem work as pay is great so is flexibility with hybrid/remote work

anonymousxoxo · 02/09/2023 17:52

Office workers don’t work their body to the bone and with remote working they can continue working in retirement by going part time. All from the comfort of their own home.

They don’t have to do long hours or shift work, can spend time with family. Use annual leave, sick pay and build up pension.

Career progression and full time salary

MannekenP · 02/09/2023 18:26

anonymousxoxo · 02/09/2023 17:49

Exactly. The problem with working class men is their bodies work harder and get weaker in retirement In comparison to office worker jobs.

more women need to go into stem work as pay is great so is flexibility with hybrid/remote work

'STEM' covers a massive range of jobs. A doctor certainly can't do hybrid/remote work....

carolineofcanton · 02/09/2023 18:47

There is a point to education besides how much you earn

anonymousxoxo · 02/09/2023 18:55

MannekenP · 02/09/2023 18:26

'STEM' covers a massive range of jobs. A doctor certainly can't do hybrid/remote work....

I agree, but a doctor can hire nanny, cleaner and work part time and still get a very good salary.

TheMoth · 02/09/2023 18:56

carolineofcanton · 02/09/2023 18:47

There is a point to education besides how much you earn

I think this depends on your background.
If I'd told my parents I wanted to go to uni for the sheer love of learning, I'd have been told to get to fuck. The whole point was to earn more money, even though in the end, I didn't choose a high paying career. Although I couldn't have done that career without a degree. Parents weren't bothered, as long as I could support myself. They were both paying keep from 15.

Dh didn't go to uni. He sees uni more as a means to an end, rather than developing learning, but thinks the kids would be better off doing apprenticeships when the time comes. I think learning for the love of it is, sadly, a luxury that increasing numbers of students won't be able to afford. I would like the dc to go to uni, but only if they're academic enough.

TheMoth · 02/09/2023 19:00

I also think it depends where you live and the people around you. Many degrees are not necessarily about a love of learning. I know lots of people who went to uni later and did more vocational degrees, whereas mine was very much because I wanted to continue studying and, if I'm honest, sound like more the like my teachers and the mc people I served in my part time jobs. I didn't really think about what I'd do after uni, just that I wanted to be more.

I think I could put money on which of my dc will want to learn because they can, and which one will pragmatically and ruthlessly plot their career path.

HamBone · 02/09/2023 19:12

I think I could put money on which of my dc will want to learn because they can, and which one will pragmatically and ruthlessly plot their career path.

Same, @TheMoth 🤣🤣 My DD has just started uni and although she’s genuinely interesting in her subject, I know that she’s also plotting her career path!

DS is less intense, he obviously knows that he needs to support himself as an adult, but he’ll prioritize a love of learning over money/career success.

HamBone · 02/09/2023 19:12
  • interested
MannekenP · 02/09/2023 19:29

HamBone · 02/09/2023 19:12

I think I could put money on which of my dc will want to learn because they can, and which one will pragmatically and ruthlessly plot their career path.

Same, @TheMoth 🤣🤣 My DD has just started uni and although she’s genuinely interesting in her subject, I know that she’s also plotting her career path!

DS is less intense, he obviously knows that he needs to support himself as an adult, but he’ll prioritize a love of learning over money/career success.

I find the last bit quite interesting actually.
People always make that distinction - love of learning vs career success. When in fact, one can lead to the other. Of course if you choose your degree for its earning potential more than interest the dichotomy is clear, but....

I've always loved learning and money, for me, simply buys me time to do more of it. I'm in a field that can be very intellectual + pay well. Many people, I find once they've made their money are free to pursue their passion projects. Either in our field, or something else (someone who was an avid birdwatcher for example got more formal qualifications in ornithology and ended up writing a book). A bit like Sherlock Holmes and his bee farm. Hiring a cleaner, working part-time, leaves you free to do other things.

Of course people have different ambitions, maybe others want to earn lots so they can have a big house and send the kids to private school but that's not my main motivation.

HamBone · 02/09/2023 19:58

@MannekenP Oh of course, I’m not saying that there’s always a clear distinction between making money and a love of learning.

My children are def. different personalities though. DD wants to do something she enjoys, but having a certain standard of living is important to her (champagne tastes, lemonade pocket at the moment!) so she’s chosen a subject with that in mind.

DS, OTOH, seems far more likely to choose love of his job over the salary, e.g., he enjoys helping people and is v. good at Maths-I could see him deciding to become a Maths teacher rather than going into banking, iyswim. Mind you, he’s only 14 so it’s abit early to know!😂

carolineofcanton · 02/09/2023 20:54

TheMoth · 02/09/2023 18:56

I think this depends on your background.
If I'd told my parents I wanted to go to uni for the sheer love of learning, I'd have been told to get to fuck. The whole point was to earn more money, even though in the end, I didn't choose a high paying career. Although I couldn't have done that career without a degree. Parents weren't bothered, as long as I could support myself. They were both paying keep from 15.

Dh didn't go to uni. He sees uni more as a means to an end, rather than developing learning, but thinks the kids would be better off doing apprenticeships when the time comes. I think learning for the love of it is, sadly, a luxury that increasing numbers of students won't be able to afford. I would like the dc to go to uni, but only if they're academic enough.

That's an awful situation. For every able student that is able to achieve their potential, the stronger the talent pool to choose from - especially in public service.

BillyNotQuiteNoMates · 02/09/2023 21:30

My own children have never been under any illusion that I think exams are the be all and end all in life. They have followed varying jobs and career and my only priority is that they are happy and treat others well. I’m proud of who they are, and how they live, not their academic achievements.

MannekenP · 02/09/2023 21:32

HamBone · 02/09/2023 19:58

@MannekenP Oh of course, I’m not saying that there’s always a clear distinction between making money and a love of learning.

My children are def. different personalities though. DD wants to do something she enjoys, but having a certain standard of living is important to her (champagne tastes, lemonade pocket at the moment!) so she’s chosen a subject with that in mind.

DS, OTOH, seems far more likely to choose love of his job over the salary, e.g., he enjoys helping people and is v. good at Maths-I could see him deciding to become a Maths teacher rather than going into banking, iyswim. Mind you, he’s only 14 so it’s abit early to know!😂

Hahaha fair enough. I am probably more like your daughter. If I had to choose I would definitely pick money over passion!

MannekenP · 02/09/2023 21:35

carolineofcanton · 02/09/2023 20:54

That's an awful situation. For every able student that is able to achieve their potential, the stronger the talent pool to choose from - especially in public service.

We would be in a far better position if we acknowledged that university was academic, and yes, funded every able student to go away for 3 years and learn.
Rather than turn everything into a degree, push everyone into universities for 3 years, leading to even the non-academically inclined and not particularly bothered feeling like they need to go otherwise doors close.... and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Other countries with free/cheap education acknowledge the equal importance of degrees and other forms of qualification with various paths open to young people. Instead of seeing the former as superior somehow, and hence the be all and end all.

Their universities also have tough weeder exams... they don't lower standards if people don't do well unlike in the UK where higher ed is a business and failing the consumer (student) if they don't get good grades.

RampantIvy · 02/09/2023 21:38

We would be in a far better position if we acknowledged that university was academic, and yes, funded every able student to go away for 3 years and learn.
Than turn everything into a degree, push everyone into universities for 3 years, leading to even the non-academically inclined and not particularly bothered feeling like they need to go otherwise doors close.... and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Well said @MannekenP

curaçao · 02/09/2023 21:38

MrTiddlesTheCat · 29/08/2023 12:22

My husband is a nuclear chemist. I can't imagine he'd be much good at his job if he only had a woodwork GCSE.

Does it pay as well as being a skilled cabinet maker?

MBDBBB · 02/09/2023 21:53

There are so many variables in where people end up, not just academics, but I always say to my kids that if they do well in their exams, all avenues will be open to them. If they don’t then many avenues will be closed to them. Strong results and qualifications give you the choice to choose any path, whether you aim to earn loads of cash or not. Of course happiness is the ultimate goal, but who wouldn’t want the world to be their kids’ oyster?

Bikesandbees · 02/09/2023 22:19

Everyone should read your post. It’s so important. (I’m a secondary teacher).

The pressure put on kids to achieve academic excellence is crazy, and it’s largely meaningless. We need serious reform in our education system to reflect what matter most: passion, hardwork, intrinsic motivation, determination, and joy in what we do. Doing well in exams is not a life skill. It’s just shows that you know how to remember stuff for a short period of time and put it down on paper in a way that gets you points.

anonymousxoxo · 02/09/2023 22:22

Bikesandbees · 02/09/2023 22:19

Everyone should read your post. It’s so important. (I’m a secondary teacher).

The pressure put on kids to achieve academic excellence is crazy, and it’s largely meaningless. We need serious reform in our education system to reflect what matter most: passion, hardwork, intrinsic motivation, determination, and joy in what we do. Doing well in exams is not a life skill. It’s just shows that you know how to remember stuff for a short period of time and put it down on paper in a way that gets you points.

It’s funny you wrote this because you wouldn’t have your job without a degree/PGCE.

There would be an outrage if children were taught by uneducated teachers and rightly so.

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