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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think academic success truly does not matter

457 replies

Hotstuff18 · 29/08/2023 12:05

Firstly, this isn’t sour grapes. I went to a very prestigious RG university and was always the annoying girl with my hand up at school (ah misspent youth 😂). However, in almost all the adults I know now their academic outcomes have had literally no bearing on their lives now in their late 30’s and early 40’s. In my own life, my A’s at A level count for absolutely nothing when my part time teacher salary is absolutely dwarfed by my non academic DH’s who spent most of his time at school messing around and smoking behind the bike sheds. At work, a lot of my colleagues didn’t do that well in their own exams and now do the exact same job as me. Many friends who work in trade jobs having left school at 16 earn very impressive salaries meanwhile others with top grades in their exams earn low money. One particular example that always sticks out to me is a lady who lives down the street, who’s also a teacher, absolutely bombed her exams as she spent the whole time partying (whilst I spent most of year 13 diligently writing up notes and doing practice essays) and yet we ended up living on the same street doing the exact same job. I’m not bitter about this at all, I absolutely love my life however, I do regret not just having more fun at school and not worrying about my grades because it really hasn’t paid off. Obviously, for certain jobs such as medicine too grades are needed but for the vast majority it truly doesn’t matter at all. I have definitely learned my lesson on it with my own DC and have never excessively pushed them and my main priority has always been their social progress/happiness at school rather than grades, which I think will honestly stand them in far better stead than getting all 9’s in their GCSE’s. Aibu?

OP posts:
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5
rockpoolingtogether · 30/08/2023 23:23

I agree, but surely having good grades won't hurt. I think when you are academic you are more in danger of taking a traditional route, which doesn't always pay.

SemperIdem · 30/08/2023 23:28

Sugarcoatt · 30/08/2023 23:16

Yes, qualifications open doors. Which then get slammed shut again if your face doesn’t fit. You need to be likeable, the interviewer has to feel a rapport with you and want to hire you, enjoy taking to you, want to eat lunch with you every day for the next five years. It’s more to do with your personality than your qualifications.

For example, why do you think so many autistic people are highly qualified but unemployed? Because employers hire based on social qualities. If you don’t have those social qualities you wont get hired.

There will be a huge number of autistic women in the workforce - it is wildly under-diagnosed in women.

HamBone · 30/08/2023 23:49

Mememe1234 · 30/08/2023 23:02

They don’t! Both earn about the same unless the man negotiates better. Most jobs have a salary band and from my experience, men tend to be a lot better at negotiating pay. If you don’t ask you won’t get. Men tend to push harder. It’s more that women tend to choose jobs that on average pay less.

Yes, @Mememe1234 , I think the pushiness factor is crucial. If you don’t ask/insist, you don’t get.

MrsValentine24 · 31/08/2023 00:35

That’s a stereotype really…no work no pay only applies to the self-employed, and that includes anybody running a non trade related business. Everyone else in the trades gets sick pay, pension contributions and annual leave the same as any office worker. And I would say all work takes its toll on the body, it’s just something you have to put up with if you need to work for a living. It’s paper cuts, carpal tunnel or poor eyesight for people who type at a computer all day long and bashing your head on someone’s loft hatch or dropping a spanner on your (probably steel toe capped) foot if you’re a tradie.

TheCurtainQueen · 31/08/2023 06:40

Sugarcoatt · 30/08/2023 23:16

Yes, qualifications open doors. Which then get slammed shut again if your face doesn’t fit. You need to be likeable, the interviewer has to feel a rapport with you and want to hire you, enjoy taking to you, want to eat lunch with you every day for the next five years. It’s more to do with your personality than your qualifications.

For example, why do you think so many autistic people are highly qualified but unemployed? Because employers hire based on social qualities. If you don’t have those social qualities you wont get hired.

But you wouldn’t even get a job if you didn’t have the qualifications. Being able to impress in an interview is a skill that needs to be learned just like any other. But the fact remains, it has very little to do with “who you know” as your original post claimed.

The dire underemployment rates amongst autistic people is another topic entirely.

Gemst199 · 31/08/2023 06:44

Obviously there are many good career's available through non academic routes. BUT... I work 16 hours a week (by choice) in a job I enjoy and earn the equivalent of working 42 hours a week on a supermarket checkout. The job I have is directly attributable to my academic success.
My husband did not have great school results or go to university when young, and found that his wage was steadily dropping as he changed job - the world was valuing his skills less as they were common/could be outsourced. He went to university in his 40s for a fresh start and is now starting to increase his salary.

Freddiesjacket · 31/08/2023 06:48

It does matter when starting out and later on in my experience. Lots of people put stock in your results and especially if you did or did not go to uni.

Mswest · 31/08/2023 06:54

I duno how someone can bomb their exams and still get a degree to become a teacher? She must have taken a different route like an access course later on? The grades aren't essential but they give you a lot more choice that's what I'll be telling my kids. I had a great time at school and got the bare minimum for uni as intended. If I hadn't got that I would've been fine and probably ended up promoted in an entry level office job, but I've have been bored as hell and it wouldn't have been my career choice despite the money.

CalatheaHoya · 31/08/2023 08:30

Yeah exactly, my pay is rubbish! Luckily DH works in the city or id definitely not be living in London and be doing a different track somewhere green and lovely… actually that doesn’t sound too bad 😂

Mememe1234 · 31/08/2023 09:56

HamBone · 30/08/2023 23:49

Yes, @Mememe1234 , I think the pushiness factor is crucial. If you don’t ask/insist, you don’t get.

I manage teams and I’ve noticed that some people are so much pushier with pay. I only ever asked for a pay rise once in my career and got rejected. I then decided to move to another company and got a 40% pay rise and then kept moving instead of wasting time asking for a pay rise in the same company. I’ve managed to treble my salary in the last 10 years but prob could of got there faster if I’d moved to another company quicker 😅

aCatCalledFawkes · 31/08/2023 10:14

Well it really depends doesn't it? A lot of people who have got to the top have certainly have degrees and there are jobs not everyone can do like being a Dr or a Vet.
Additionally having just been through GCSEs with my daughter who worked hard we know that getting straight grade 9s and entering a RG Uni isn't something that everyone can do. However that doesn't mean we shouldn't encourage our children to reach their full potential to find careers paths that they an be happy in which may or may not include more academic qualifications. I think that is a bigger measure of success.

Ilinaya · 31/08/2023 13:26

I totally agree with you, especially GCSE level. There is so much angst and stress and focus about getting good GCSEs but they are totally superceded by A levels.
All I needed at GCSE was 5 A*-C grades to get into college, my life wouldnt be any different now if I had got mainly C's rather than mainly A's for example. And even then you can get to a good uni without needing A's.
The error I made is never really considering what I wanted to do, just going through the motions and ended up in the wrong career, but that's partly the fault of our education system for being so grade obsessed rather than setting someone up for real life.

SleeplessInShoeburyness · 31/08/2023 13:53

Nowadays a lot of jobs which didn’t traditionally require degrees and which you could work up the ladder in like admin/secretarial jobs want degrees. Nurses need degrees nowadays so yes, academic qualifications do dictate outcomes. You need either qualifications or experience to get into a decent job and with a first job, you won’t have experIence!

DD flunked her GCSEs and then did a 3 year BTEC at college which got her the UCAS points to get into University. She’d not have got into the management role she’s in now if she hadn’t got the experience in her first job, which required a degree, and opened the door for her.

perrieFlora · 31/08/2023 14:14

@Hotstuff18 sorry but dont agree at all

I went to a grammar and majority got A/B grades at A Level and went to RG/ Top20 unis to do law medicine business IT food tech

Everyone I can think of is now wealthy. Even lower earners (teachers nurses) either married tradespeople/ doctors/ higj earners or, now work private school or some other sideways add on eg property

Im afraid you undersold yourself. What degree did you do? If youd moved to London you'd be on £100k ish at late 30-early 40s doing most things in business (not teaching).

Its not right what youre saying unless deprived part of UK. You obviously csnt expect to be a high earner as a PT teacher (?)

RampantIvy · 31/08/2023 17:11

All I needed at GCSE was 5 A-C grades to get into college, my life wouldnt be any different now if I had got mainly C's rather than mainly A's for example. And even then you can get to a good uni without needing A's.*

@Ilinaya A lot of 6th forms have minimum grades for certain subjects at A level. And due to higher than usual birth rates approximately 15 - 18 years ago it has become increasingly competitive to get into a good university, especially for an oversubscribed degree course. This means that courses that required BBB only a few years ago are asking for As and A*s now. I fear that your information may be out of date.

x2boys · 31/08/2023 17:14

MrTiddlesTheCat · 29/08/2023 12:22

My husband is a nuclear chemist. I can't imagine he'd be much good at his job if he only had a woodwork GCSE.

He might be a,successful carpenter/ joiner though...

tennesseewhiskey1 · 31/08/2023 17:20

Surely it depends on what you are doing, i know two rocket scientists (i work with them) and they dont just have a 'degree' - they have very very specific degrees to enable them to do their jobs.

Ilinaya · 31/08/2023 17:38

RampantIvy · 31/08/2023 17:11

All I needed at GCSE was 5 A-C grades to get into college, my life wouldnt be any different now if I had got mainly C's rather than mainly A's for example. And even then you can get to a good uni without needing A's.*

@Ilinaya A lot of 6th forms have minimum grades for certain subjects at A level. And due to higher than usual birth rates approximately 15 - 18 years ago it has become increasingly competitive to get into a good university, especially for an oversubscribed degree course. This means that courses that required BBB only a few years ago are asking for As and A*s now. I fear that your information may be out of date.

I've looked on our local college entry requirement website (very well respected college) and most subjects require a grade 4, some a 5 or maybe a 6 in the subject you wish to study. The only subject that requires a 7 is further maths.
I'm not suggesting kids should all just abandon their education but I don't think the pressure for top grades is necessary, and there are many different routes and paths to success in life.
Many people also retrain at a later date and can take other qualifications further down the line.
The birth rate is also on the decline.

RampantIvy · 31/08/2023 17:47

The birth rate is also on the decline.

In general, yeas, but this year and the next two have higher numbers than usual applying to university. I spend a lot of time on higher education forums, and this is where I am getting my information from.

Our local (outstanding) 6th form college doesn't have minimum entry requirements, but a lot of 6th forms at schools do. When DD was applying for 6th form at her school the requirement was to have achieved at least a B in the GCSE subject she wanted to take at A level, and a B in English language to take an A level that required a lot of essay writing (she took her GCSEs in 2016).

x2boys · 31/08/2023 17:57

Eleganz · 30/08/2023 14:57

Of course it makes a difference. I might not be earning more than a plumber, but I'd much rather be doing what I am doing than fixing toilets.

Academic success gives you choice and opportunity, it doesn't mean you have to be a CEO or you've failed.

You do realise plumber,s are highly skilled?
How do.you know they wouldn't be rather fixing toilets then doing whatever " highly intelligen" t job you are doing 🙄

Eleganz · 31/08/2023 18:05

x2boys · 31/08/2023 17:57

You do realise plumber,s are highly skilled?
How do.you know they wouldn't be rather fixing toilets then doing whatever " highly intelligen" t job you are doing 🙄

I would hope they would enjoy their jobs or they are in the wrong jobs!

The issue is not about their skills but the fact is that I don't have to do physical labour. I don't have to unclog drains and crawl into awkward spider-infested cubbyholes to fix leaks to earn my money. I largely get to sit in a nice comfortable office to do my work, which is intellectual and not physical labour.That is the benefit of an education as far as I can see, I can earn the same as a reasonably successful plumber without the physical graft.

Natalia96 · 31/08/2023 18:06

I disagree. While getting a degree isn't equivalent to getting a high paying job, it's does increase your chances of having a, financially speaking, easier life. I graduated Valedictorian and was accepted to Cambridge to study HSP. Due to poor health which turned out to be a rare chronic disease, I had to decline and began studying at a local uni while living at home. Now I am doing my masters part time and working part time as an online teacher (they gave me said accommodation as I have a BSc in a very in demand subject). If it weren't for my previous skills acquired during high school, I would have stuggled much more during uni. Instead I could focus on my health and still get a degree. Is it perfect? Definitely not but with out academic skills, I would be lost and unable to pay for my private healhcare.

x2boys · 31/08/2023 18:19

Eleganz · 31/08/2023 18:05

I would hope they would enjoy their jobs or they are in the wrong jobs!

The issue is not about their skills but the fact is that I don't have to do physical labour. I don't have to unclog drains and crawl into awkward spider-infested cubbyholes to fix leaks to earn my money. I largely get to sit in a nice comfortable office to do my work, which is intellectual and not physical labour.That is the benefit of an education as far as I can see, I can earn the same as a reasonably successful plumber without the physical graft.

Plumbers are educated ,you can't just rock up and be a plumber they have to train for a number of years!

Eleganz · 31/08/2023 18:26

x2boys · 31/08/2023 18:19

Plumbers are educated ,you can't just rock up and be a plumber they have to train for a number of years!

They generally have to do an apprenticeship of a few years post-16. Advanced plumbing apprenticeships are set at Level 3 which is broadly equivalent to A-levels. They are in no way comparable to someone with postgraduate qualifications in terms of depth of knowledge. For example my plumber would be fine replacing my drains but you would need a water systems engineer to design the drainage system for a whole town.

x2boys · 31/08/2023 18:34

Eleganz · 31/08/2023 18:26

They generally have to do an apprenticeship of a few years post-16. Advanced plumbing apprenticeships are set at Level 3 which is broadly equivalent to A-levels. They are in no way comparable to someone with postgraduate qualifications in terms of depth of knowledge. For example my plumber would be fine replacing my drains but you would need a water systems engineer to design the drainage system for a whole town.

And ?
I trained as a nurse ,I didn't v have the same depth of knowledge as a Dr but it doesn't mean nurses are not educated 🙄