To think academic success truly does not matter

[Hotstuff18]

Firstly, this isn’t sour grapes. I went to a very prestigious RG university and was always the annoying girl with my hand up at school (ah misspent youth 😂). However, in almost all the adults I know now their academic outcomes have had literally no bearing on their lives now in their late 30’s and early 40’s. In my own life, my A’s at A level count for absolutely nothing when my part time teacher salary is absolutely dwarfed by my non academic DH’s who spent most of his time at school messing around and smoking behind the bike sheds. At work, a lot of my colleagues didn’t do that well in their own exams and now do the exact same job as me. Many friends who work in trade jobs having left school at 16 earn very impressive salaries meanwhile others with top grades in their exams earn low money. One particular example that always sticks out to me is a lady who lives down the street, who’s also a teacher, absolutely bombed her exams as she spent the whole time partying (whilst I spent most of year 13 diligently writing up notes and doing practice essays) and yet we ended up living on the same street doing the exact same job. I’m not bitter about this at all, I absolutely love my life however, I do regret not just having more fun at school and not worrying about my grades because it really hasn’t paid off. Obviously, for certain jobs such as medicine too grades are needed but for the vast majority it truly doesn’t matter at all. I have definitely learned my lesson on it with my own DC and have never excessively pushed them and my main priority has always been their social progress/happiness at school rather than grades, which I think will honestly stand them in far better stead than getting all 9’s in their GCSE’s. Aibu?

To be blunt, only some people judge you on your wealth, not your academic success. Not everyone is completely signed up to the capitalist value system or US priorities.

I am super proud of my ds who got the (apparently low and awful) grades to train to be a plumber this year. It will take him 4 years to be gas qualified. No "less" a training than A levels, by far.

I've taught for over 20 years at secondary level. We utterly undervalue trade qualifications in this country and we assume that gcse at grade 4 and above are the be all and end all. They're not. I was just as proud on results day of my students who are going on to "lesser" courses as I was of those who will return to me for A Levels.

What I can say with absolute honesty is that every bit of my plumbing, plastering and decorating in the last few years has involved me realising I am employing old pupils and they are all earning more than me. One student now runs a chain of dog grooming mobile salons and they are doing brilliantly.

We really need to change our system and mindset.

That’s because most people (and schools) are stuck in the mindset that a degree is impressive, when actually a non-vocational degree by itself impresses nobody anymore. Everybody has a degree, gone are the days when only special smart people had degrees. Sixth form is now compulsory and sixth-formers are automatically funnelled into higher education unless they make a conscious effort not to be.

Something I find really telling about the status of a university degree: my uncle went to university in the 70s, paid no tuition and received a grant. My stepdad went to uni 10 years later and also paid no tuition fees and received a grant, but the value of the grant was the same figure my uncle had received 10 years previously. My mum went to uni as a mature student in the 90s, she still didn’t pay tuition but had to take a loan instead of receiving a grant, though the loan was minimal. People attending university today pay upwards of 30k for the privilege in tuition alone.

To have a university degree lead to a high paying job you have a long-term goal and study something vocational, like medicine or engineering, or else really make a strong effort to do lots of industry-specific internships/volunteering and have stand-out extracurriculars if you’re picking a subject with a less structured career pathway.

When most people come out of university, they may have a 2.1 but they also probably have 0 work history and a lingering tendency to ask permission to use the bathroom. It just doesn’t compare in earning potential to a peer who has 3/4+ years of professional experience.

Your salary is impacted by your work choices though. You have chosen to work part time, if you worked full time then you would be earning significantly more.

Very non academic parents/family (dropped out of school) state educated. I just really liked learning, excelled at school, top of the year at A-levels, top at medical school. Now a doctor on a fairly academic track in a ‘prestigious’ London teaching hospital. However I earn way less than friends in the city especially for the hours I work.

And I never felt pressured by anyone to study hard I just genuinely enjoyed learning and studying!

It's not the end of the world if you don't do well in school but doing well increases your choices in life. I didn't do well at school due to personal circumstances at the time so I ended up going back to education as an adult to have a fulfilling, decent paying career. Some people do better with apprenticeships or working their way up but they still need to put the work in at some point. Surely it's better put the graft in early, when you have less responsibilities/ commitments?

You're absolutely right.
One size doesn't, couldn't, shouldn't fit all.

Totally agree. I think a certain personality type, confidence and self esteem has a far bigger baring on how successful people are in life... obviously if you're a genius you'll probably do well, or maybe it will work against you! But yeh, straight As don't guarantee success at all.

Can I know your job please?

As a factual observation, I have a PhD in s STEM subject with direct relevance to the work of our company, in fact I won a prize as the top student of the whole University. I'm surrounded at work by people who didn't go to University, some may not have A levels, I don't know as I never asked, and I don't care, we are all equal. They ask me things, I ask them things, we work as a team

As I see it, passing or failing one exam at age 16-21 doesn't define and determine you chances in life and limit you in any way if you work hard, and that is a very very good thing!!!

I think the only conclusion you can draw from this is that
a) teachers are underpaid
b) builders are overpaid
for what they do.

Window cleaning businesses are generally sole traders or small local firms, yes. Which means there’s a gap in the market for someone to start a franchise. With enough ingenuity, I bet someone could make a go of it.

Well, maybe not window cleaning…..

But time was when every town and village had a cobbler and a locksmith - and now there’s Timpsons everywhere. Mr Timpson took a traditional small business, changed the model, and made a mint.

Thats what I mean by saying that if you’ve got the right skills and attitude, you can go a long way without academic qualifications.

Not me, though. I didn’t do that.

Doesn’t matter in the slightest for probably 90% of the population. Straight A and A* student here (old school grades), offered a place at Cambridge and sacked the whole lot off because the pressure from certain family members and teachers got too much and I completely burned out (much to a lot of people’s disappointment as 17 years ago mental health/wellbeing was classed as an excuse/weakness 🙄). Granted I wanted to do medicine which obviously I can’t do without a degree but I now earn more than I probably would have done as a doctor at this age, I don’t get bothered out of working hours and those same family members who constantly berated me for being ‘weak’ now say I earn too much because they don’t understand my technical job and obviously because I’m a woman, it clearly can’t be that hard! 🙄

The biggest lesson I’ve learned is that some people will just never be happy with you, so teaching DC to run their own race, do what makes them happy but be mindful that the basics (English, Maths & Science) will help in later life and so it’s best to pay attention so you have more options available!

But I agree with you wholly, definitely wish I’d partied more!!!

The thing is, the people that messed around probably didn't expect the opportunities you worked for. Not everyone with great intelligence takes the Uni route but if they had then their potential could have been massive.

@BishyBarnyBee

https://theconversation.com/dont-blame-the-teacher-student-results-are-mostly-out-of-their-hands-124177

@phlebasconsidered I think people have always known that 'the trades' make a lot of money. Businesspeople always have. There's so much stuff going around on LinkedIn etc 'have your own business'.
But the 'trades', much like 'high paying' professions are not something open to everybody. And it's a hard slog. No work no pay. Get sick/physically injured and you're done for. It also takes a toll on your body.... don't underestimate that.

I think the key question is, what's the best choice for Mr/Mrs Average?
A couple of decades ago people left school, got a job and worked their way up. That's bit harder to do these days. So people's 'XYZ neighbour has no degree and is now a director at Goldman Sachs' is completely irrelevant to a 16 year old in 2023.

There are other qualifications, not uni but people don't know about them. People get also go distance/PT learning. I do think at some point, even if people start work they need some form of further qualification to get somewhere.

Academic excellence for the sake of it? Nah. I'd say my partying and extracurriculars got me the job more than anything...

A couple of decades ago people left school, got a job and worked their way up. That's bit harder to do these days. So people's 'XYZ neighbour has no degree and is now a director at Goldman Sachs' is completely irrelevant to a 16 year old in 2023.

I agree. Far too many people fail to realise this.

Those are all convenient excuses for not doing well. None of the people I know who have done well can attribute their success to connections. I think you’re thinking of the sort of tories who end up with government contracts because they’re mates with ministers. This isn’t the real world.

Qualifications open doors.

Let’s be honest MEN (or rather male dominated jobs eg trade) do not need qualifications in the same way women do to earn great salaries.

Trades are well paid - female dominated roles such as carers, childcare, teaching, nursing etc are not.

I don’t think this is about qualifications its about gender

girls outperform boys at all stages of education and yet are not earning even the same as men.

so while I agreee education isn’t everything - I do think this is more applicable for boys than girls.

I agree that traditionally female dominated roles such as teaching and nursing pay less well. But does a male teacher receive a higher salary than a female teacher at the same level? Does a male electrician get paid more than a female with the same qualifications? I genuinely don’t know the answer, perhaps someone can provide it.

It does have a bearing depending on the job you choose.

You got top grades but decided to do teaching which is a relatively low paid job. If you had chosen to go into investment banking or consultancy you could be looking at a package of over £200k+. To be able to get those jobs you’d ideally need a degree from a good university in a relevant field however it’s not the be all end all. Both my husband and I are on a good salary but I graduated from a crap uni. My husband graduated from a top uni and went into banking so has always earnt more than me. I chose an industry that pays less. If you want to earn more you have to be more strategic in terms of what you do after uni.

They don’t! Both earn about the same unless the man negotiates better. Most jobs have a salary band and from my experience, men tend to be a lot better at negotiating pay. If you don’t ask you won’t get. Men tend to push harder. It’s more that women tend to choose jobs that on average pay less.

Yes, qualifications open doors. Which then get slammed shut again if your face doesn’t fit. You need to be likeable, the interviewer has to feel a rapport with you and want to hire you, enjoy taking to you, want to eat lunch with you every day for the next five years. It’s more to do with your personality than your qualifications.

For example, why do you think so many autistic people are highly qualified but unemployed? Because employers hire based on social qualities. If you don’t have those social qualities you wont get hired.

You got top grades but decided to do teaching which is a relatively low paid job
When I was a kid in the 80s, teaching was a good job. Especially for women, because the hours were short and you got holidays off to look after your own kids. Lots of middle aged people grew up thinking that teaching was respectable and well paid with a good pension, and got a shock to discover that isn’t the case any more.

In fact a lot of the older generation still believe teaching is a good job, my mum has suggested it to me several times and won’t believe me when I say it pays less than working on the till in Aldi. It has been massively de-professionalised in the last 20 years but the majority of people haven’t realised this. So when OP went into teaching it’s highly likely that everyone around her was telling her it’s a good career.