…to want things formalised in DM’s will, or am I being grabby?

[GoodWillDrafting]

We’re a small, close family and we all get on very well, so the last thing I want is to create bad feeling. But…

My DM, a widow, has helped my DSis out financially a fair bit, whereas I’ve never wanted or needed any help since I stopped being a student over three decades ago.

The most recent bail-out involved a pretty hefty sum, which my DSis suggested be deducted from the amount she inherits from our mum’s estate, whenever that might be.
I have no problem with this, but I do want it to be formalised somehow, as I know how easily these things get forgotten/the details blur, and my mum won’t be around to make sure it happens.

I’ve also suggested that the previous lump sum my mum “lent” my DSis should be included (from earlier this year).

My own circumstances are that I’m fine for money now, but have a disabled child who’s likely to need more, rather than less care as she gets older, and I can see myself being unable to work at some point.

I mentioned the issue (again) to my mum yesterday, and she looked a bit panicky and said she didn’t want to upset my DSis or let her know we’d been talking about her finances.

My attitude is that all this stuff should be out in the open as it concerns us all, and if anyone’s going to be potentially pissed off, it’s me. I’d be happy for the three of us to sit down and discuss it, even though I find talking about money really awkward, especially as none of us enjoys talking about profiting from DM’s death!

Am I being unreasonable to want the money DM has lent/advanced DSis reflected in her will? Or am I being grabby?

NC for obvious reasons.

Presumably @YeahIsaidit, life being unfair includes you not being in line for any inheritance. You're coming across as jealous

YeahIsaidit

yes you are right to some extent.
I would suggest that both the sister and the mum have showed exactly what they think of her and her concerns (which is very little) and the OP needs to decide if she wants to be treated like a second class citizen or wants to walk away.

Given your DS doesn't appear to need the money but rather likes to have it so she can supplement the family income and live beyond their means, and has already defaulted on a loan, then I would assume that when the time comes she will not "remember" because she has form for putting her financial WANTS above her own mother's. That is the only thing that seems grabby in all of this. If your DM wants to make it fair then why not give you the equivalent of the loan and early inheritance gift amount now? Then you also don't have the issue of what gets added back in etc for IHT purposes if 7 years haven't passed between loan/gift and your DM passing. It will be equal on all sides, the will doesn't need updating, there's no confusion around what hasn't been paid back from the loan and if IHT is payable on the amounts your DS has benefitted from then you will also have had the same and the IHT doesn't need to be split differently either. If your DM is a people pleaser then she presumably wants to please you as well. You sound kind and thoughtful and I don't mean this badly, but also you do sound like you could be taken advantage of and need to assert yourself on this one because DS sounds like a bit of a p!s$ taker.

redcirculari

possibly or more likely someone who treats their children unfairly and doesn’t want to be called out on it….

I don't know if i am or not, couldn't care less, I'm glad my parents are still around and am not expecting anything from them. I hope that they use whatever money they have to enjoy themselves, not worrying about how it should be divvied up between me and my siblings

Only have the 1, try again

OP has a clear interest in this situation as her mother has essentially told her that following her death the OP will become a creditor to the OP’s own sister. This is based on the mother saying that she expects the sister to repay the money, but she hasn’t adjusted the will itself to ensure that happens or to record that this is an obligation which is expected of her.

Instead she is leaving it to the OP to sort out directly. The OP will be the one who has to decide whether to ask her sister for repayment, the one to decide what the terms of repayment should be, or the one to decide whether to forgive the debt. All because the mother is too cowardly to step up as a parent should and make these decisions herself.

What sort of parent would willingly throw their children into this fucked up creditor/debtor relationship when it is within their power to sort the situation out themselves?

The mother has effectively announced to OP the existence of a time bomb that could well explode the relationship between these daughters at a time when they will be grieving.

Fuck all that “it’s none of your business what she does with her money” bollocks that some people are spouting - she has forced this situation onto the OP and unless she understands what she has done and takes steps to remedy it she is likely to screw them both up.

What a legacy to leave behind!

YeahIsaidit

just seems weird that you are so investing in defending the indefensible.

It seems weird to me that anyone thinks they have a right to tell a grown woman how to manage her affairs 🤷‍♀️

The easiest solution would be that she gifts you the same amount now so you are on equal footing

I borrowed 10k from my mum she unfortunately died and I still owed 8k. We deducted that from my total. But I'm not a dick.

@Pandor this is it - exactly. I don’t want to have to deal with any of this. It’s not of my making.

@YeahIsaidit My DM is constantly confiding in me and asking for my advice. This is pretty much the first time I’ve brought my own interests into the equation.

Do you have POAs in place as well for when that time comes? We had a situation like this in a family where one sibling was sponging off the parent monthly. I would be keeping a close eye.

Op is your mother fully capable? Independent?

or is she very financially naive? Does she have learning difficulties?

@Layinwait DM has full capacity, is intelligent and not particularly naive. She just has a bit of a blind spot when it comes to DSis and money.

For what it's worth, we had a similar situation except it was that DM gave me an 'advance' on my inheritance so I could buy my first property. I was in a very different situation from my sister at the time and she wasn't in the same place as me (I'm older than her - she'd just graduated, no job, I was just married and we were trying for a baby). DM made it very clear that this is what it was and wrote both me and DSis a letter explaining that and that her expectations were that DSis would take the equivalent amount more from the estate when she died.

She did die, about ten years later, and DSis and I executed the will in line with her wishes. It was fine - but it was partially fine because we had all talked about it at length when she was alive. She was very concerned about us getting something when she died (she put in place a life insurance policy to pay out on her death as well in case she did need care and her assets were needed to pay for that) and she wanted us to know where things were and what to do with them.

As you said @GoodWillDrafting, it very much depends on your family dynamics and it sounds like yours is very financially open, so I think it is worth ratifying it while she's able.

So?? Doesn't make it any more right

What about if your sister brings it up with your mum?

OP, I think it’s a good idea to sit down with your DM & DSis to discuss it. My DM & DF were both very open about their wills (and everything else to do with how they wanted their end of life/death to be managed), and so in my family, at least, discussing this sort of thing wouldn’t be seen as remotely awkward or grabby. And I do think it’s better to have something in writing (even if it’s just an email from your sister to you, say, confirming the situation) because you never quite know what will happen…

I think you are absolutely in the right to want things formalised. We have a similar situation in my family - one particular sibling (of 4) has been given a LOT of money by parents, think enough to buy a house. Parents have also helped other siblings out with large purchases/house deposit etc, - they can easily afford it. But where this differs from your situation is that they have kept a log of everything they have gifted to each child so when the time comes to distribute estate, each child will end up with the same amount (ie. child who has already been given house will receive significantly less than others). And all children have been told this is happening and are in agreement. I would feel very miffed if my sibling ended up with the same amount as me having already been supported to the tune of 6-figure sum already!

Your mother doesn’t have a blind spot. She’s deliberately not dealing with the situation because she doesn’t want any trouble and is a coward.

Your mother isn’t willing to sort the situation because she won’t upset your sister. Your sister has shown how bold and outspoken she is by continuing to ask for cash, and you mother knows these personality traits won’t be pleasant to deal with if your sister is told no more or that the will will reflect what she has already had.

You, on the other hand, are the quiet one, you have accepted the unfairness, you ask for nothing, she confides in you, you don’t cause ‘trouble’.

It’s much easier for you mother if you’re the one that’s upset as you’ll be quieter about it.

This nice, close family that you see you all as, is built on lies and a reliance of you not speaking up, by both your mum and your sister. How kind really is a mum willing to expect you to just accept her favouritism towards your sister. How nice is a person that allows her sister to lose out so much. You’re family isn’t as lovely and open as you think. Wise up!

Of course your mum can continue to do this, it’s her money after all. But you are allowed to feel it’s wrong. Resentment will build as it is starting to already.

I think it’s reasonable you want your DM to formalise in the will what has been agreed otherwise she’s just making false promises.

It does make a difference, a huge one. Your DM needs to understand the Inheritance Tax system, or consult someone who does.

I have now inherited from the relative who wouldn't find out. I have less money than that rel had, and other members of the family have benefitted when I did.

I'm now the one with capital trying to mitigate Inheritance Tax on my estate, in order that I pass on the most to DC when I die. If I give away £10,000 today to someone, whether they are in the will or not, then if I die within the next 3 years, i.e. before 28th August 2026, the Tax man will treat my estate as if I hadn't given it away, and there will be Inheritance Tax at 40% to pay on it from my estate, EVEN THOUGH I'VE GIVEN IT AWAY. I'd have to live a full 7 years for the gift not to affect IHT at all, i.e. till 28th August 2030.

Your DM's gifts to your sister may affect the IHT paid by the estate, depending on the timings.

Please get professional advice or persuade her to do so.

Since this latest sum was expressly stated to be an advance on inheritance it should be written into the will. Maybe tell your mum it will head off any fall out later. But you do seem a bit “grabby” to raise the issue of the previous sum. That really is between your mum and your sister and it sounds as though your DM wants to make a gift of that. It’s not for you to say your DM should not do so.

you can pretty much sum this up with:

Mum - when I die your sister is going to need to pay you a load of money I’ve lent her.

OP -Oh, are you sure, that sounds really… awkward. Can she not pay you they money, or have it taken out of her inheritance or something?

mum - nope, I don’t want to upset her. best that she gets all her inheritance and then owes you the money instead - leave me out of it!

OP - I don’t really like the sound of that. How much will she owe me?

Mum - errrrr…I’ve forgotten. Lots.

OP - well let’s at least just speak to her and get it in writing so everyone is clear what has to happen …

Mum - nope - you missed the bit where I definitely don’t want to be involved in any awkward conversations, and I don’t want to upset her. Not that there is a problem you understand, I’m fully confident that your sister will pay you all the unspecified amount of money she owes you when the time comes and everyone will be happy and everything will be fair, so that’s all sorted then.

OP - I have a bad feeling about this

Mumsnet - THIS IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS YOU GRBBY COW - HOW DARE YOU