…to want things formalised in DM’s will, or am I being grabby?

[GoodWillDrafting]

We’re a small, close family and we all get on very well, so the last thing I want is to create bad feeling. But…

My DM, a widow, has helped my DSis out financially a fair bit, whereas I’ve never wanted or needed any help since I stopped being a student over three decades ago.

The most recent bail-out involved a pretty hefty sum, which my DSis suggested be deducted from the amount she inherits from our mum’s estate, whenever that might be.
I have no problem with this, but I do want it to be formalised somehow, as I know how easily these things get forgotten/the details blur, and my mum won’t be around to make sure it happens.

I’ve also suggested that the previous lump sum my mum “lent” my DSis should be included (from earlier this year).

My own circumstances are that I’m fine for money now, but have a disabled child who’s likely to need more, rather than less care as she gets older, and I can see myself being unable to work at some point.

I mentioned the issue (again) to my mum yesterday, and she looked a bit panicky and said she didn’t want to upset my DSis or let her know we’d been talking about her finances.

My attitude is that all this stuff should be out in the open as it concerns us all, and if anyone’s going to be potentially pissed off, it’s me. I’d be happy for the three of us to sit down and discuss it, even though I find talking about money really awkward, especially as none of us enjoys talking about profiting from DM’s death!

Am I being unreasonable to want the money DM has lent/advanced DSis reflected in her will? Or am I being grabby?

NC for obvious reasons.

It's shit, I agree but OP wanting to formalise things, regardless of how unfair it is is distasteful to say the least.

I agree that siblings should be treated equally but one insisting that it's legally forced is too much. It really isn't her business regardless of how unfair it feels. You can't force it

It isn't OPs fault but the posts bringing disabled DC into it and using emotional blackmail saying "if you don't care enough to change the will" etc is awful.

I think treating your children so differently is kinda distasteful and shocking. If OPs mum was to just do things fairly, OP wouldn’t be feeling how she is, and a good parent, if they were leaving their estate to their children, would do it fairly. You just do it that way and then don’t think about it any more.

It is awkward for people to discuss money in this way, that’s what people like OPs sister rely on. Do they feel awkward and distasteful taking unfair amounts? No they don’t! And then it’s actually the nicer ones like OP who get called all sorts of names like grabby when they dare to eventually say anything. It’s crazy.

Without derailing, in our similar situation, we have chosen to not say much. But that’s because, we know for sure that whatever we say, the situation will not change. The people involved can not see the problem. So instead of speaking up, we have distanced ourselves a bit so that we don’t constantly get annoyed by the unfairness and favouritism that is way more than just money. We were not going to risk some huge spectacle where it would all be twisted, because they can see zero wrong doing on their or the other persons part. We know we are right in our thinking, we know we are good people and that is enough. There was just no point trying to discuss it.

However, I think OP seems to think the situation can be sorted, because her mum is saying she wants to make it fair. Whether it can be sorted depends on if her mum really means that, and her sisters reaction. I really hope it can be sorted without trouble from OPs sister but I have a feeling OP and her mum are about to see a side of of their sister/daughter that they didn’t know existed. Why should OP keep her mouth shut though, just do that shes isn’t wrongly accused of being grabby by random people and her own sister who seems to be the definition of grabby?

Well, this won't apply to everyone of that age, of course, but I find my mum just kind of checking out of potentially difficult conversations, engaging with legal advice etc. But still very susceptible to grabby DDs like your sister.

Fundamental to all this is that your DM has expressly said she wants to be fair.

Your DSis has made it easy for her by saying it is an inheritance advance and she wants it straightened out. So all your Mum has to do is say she will arrange her affairs as she has always wanted them, equal to the two of you, and to make things straightforward will contact her will writer and ask for a short codicil that details that you OP, will receive £XXX (equal to what DSis has had) before the rest is split.

OP: Is there likely to be IHT payable? The threshold being £500k if your Mum is leaving her primary residence , or £1m if she also has your late Dad's allowance to add to hers? If so, bear in mind that the money transferred to your DSis within 7 years of your Mum's death would be considered within the total value of the estate.

I told her it was fine with me but I thought it needed to be recorded somehow. DSis sounded a bit taken aback and said something about not thinking that was necessary and she’d remember
The decent answer from someone in your DSis's position would have been 'of course'. People who need bail outs despite good income are exactly the kind of people who 'forget' money.

Yes it is reasonable and sensible because it's what your mum said, that the amount would be deducted. And you're looking out for your child. I understand her nervousness that she probably doesn't want to look like she doesn't trust anyone.

To be fair my mum wouldn't lend amount to one she didn't pay the other. She once lent my sister a smaller amount, £1000 and said keep it and gave me the same. If my sister had asked for more she would have checked first if she had for both.

Perhaps she could agree that the amount is not a loan but they keep it. And its deducted from the will

I think its complicated if it implies they're not trusted to payback the loan so if payback isn't required its easier.

Well, this won't apply to everyone of that age, of course, but I find my mum just kind of checking out of potentially difficult conversations, engaging with legal advice etc. But still very susceptible to grabby DDs like your sister.

Yes, and I think it’s understandable. Most of us just want a peaceful life with no bother. When that’s at the expense of one of your children though, it’s not ok.

If it’s not sorted, OP has to live with the fact that she was not treated fairly. That will stay with her and affect her forever, it’ll affect her relationship with her mum and sister now, the memories she has of her mum when she sadly is no longer here, and the relationship with her sister for the rest of her life. It also affects your wider relationships. If your own mum and sister can do that to you, others definitely can. As parents, we need to be fair.

I agree that it's the mums money to do with as she wants.

But it would be foolish of parents to not consider how hurtful it can be for children to be treated differently when it comes to wills and inheritance.

Often it's not about money but about love. Giving 1 child a bigger proportion of assets can feel like loving them more than the one/s that get less. That's a horrible legacy to leave as you can't undo it after you're dead.

It makes sense to discuss this whilst you can do. The parent has an opportunity to either be clear about different allocation and why, and to understand that this might hurt feelings, or to ensure clarity and fairness.

If I had a sibling that needed more money due to health, disability, other disadvantages, I might understand my parent leaving more to that sibling. But I would be hurt if there was a different proportion left for no good reason.

I have a feeling OP and her mum are about to see a side of of their sister/daughter that they didn’t know existed. Why should OP keep her mouth shut though, just do that shes isn’t wrongly accused of being grabby by random people and her own sister who seems to be the definition of grabby?

I have to say it took me therapy to get to the stage where I woke up to the fact that my lovely sibling (we got on great) was in fact unconsciously grabby to the point of dysfunction and this was totally facilitated by me as much as my parents and that I could call them on it in a calm and stable way and disabuse myself of the idea that sucking it up made me a good/more loveable person. All I did was formalise a firm promise. I predicted that paperwork wouldn't go down too well. The reaction was way worse than I expected. As it is I will still receive significantly less and I'm ok with that but squaring things up a little was major progress for me.

Maybe try enjoying your mum for however long is left rather than worrying about how much money your going to get. It seems that in this situation unless your mum changes her will then theres very little that can be done about it. It will be split 50/50 with you and your sister. Your mum is capable of making her own choices, so let her make them.

It's quite hard to enjoy a relationship with a parent if that parent has made it abundantly clear that their favourite is another sibling. The OP's mum has made no real attempt to make things equal or fair, what she's said is the siblings can sort it out once she's dead, which will inevitably mean the OP's sister never gives her any of her inheritance to make things equal. She's totally passed the buck in a really unfair way. This problem isn't going to go away.

Treat your kids differently if you like, but don't complain if the relationship isn't quite as good with the kid you're not showering with money.

DSis asked for money OP has said she hasn't, there is nothing to show favouritism or anything to show that OP wouldn't get the same if she had asked. Nothing is hidden and DM has been honest saying that she has given/loaned the money. I know I'm in the minority here but in my opinion, that should be the extent of OPs involvement. She can say its shit/unfair but insisting DMs will is amended to reflect that isn't on. It's up to DM to ensure what she's said is adhered to, not OP regardless of how unfair she feels the situation is

DM is panicking at the idea of the sister finding out she had discussed it with OP and has "forgotten" how much the gift of a few months ago was. Of course stuff is being hidden in this family dynamic. There is a performative show of each of them talking on a one-to-one basis to the OP to convince themselves otherwise but both DM and Dsis are balking at the idea of the three of them actually confronting this situation.

The unfairness to who? You? Genuine question

I mentioned the issue (again) to my mum yesterday, and she looked a bit panicky and said she didn’t want to upset my DSis or let her know we’d been talking about her finances.

no matter how fair or unfair it may be, if your DM is already panicking about what your sister might think then it will become increasingly difficult if not impossible to get her to book a solicitor meeting, what amounts to marching her down to the solicitors office , make the change to the Will, sign the Will etc etc. it sounds like she just doesn't want to get that involved even though it's her will.

an alternative option is, could she help you out financially in the same or similar way as she helped your sister out. Then you'd be able to reconcile the fact the Will says 50:50, because your DM has gone some way to rebalance this situation, without actually having to change the document which seems to be a real challenge for her.

Hi OP,

My family is doing exactly this - we've had unequal money in our lifetime (mainly house deposits) and want it square upon inheritance. 3 siblings. It sounds like this is the intention for you all but there's a bit of coyness around money. I honestly believe being upfront about it is the best way.

I'd maybe encourage an open conversation that INCLUDES this as an update to the will / make it written down, but it doesn't need to be the sole focus of the conversation - you can broach about or any funeral wishes, etc, where they keep contact details of friends, are all the details about their pensions and bank accounts recorded anywhere... etc. No need for it to be morbid - just, it's a good opportunity as while you're not expecting anything, you never know what's round the corner...

The easiest thing is if this is reflected in the Will but my parents are useless and haven't updated it in a while. So, in the meantime we've just got a verbal agreement that we all very much understand the idea is to make everything 'square' and my parents have got an excel spreadsheet saved (and printed in the safe) of all the gifts. It has the dates and a column for inflation indexation so they're all being reflected at the right values. It's also a v useful doc for the 7 year PET rules.

SO what's the alternative kick up a fuss, upset or bully her mother into changing her will? If she does that she's no better than the sister. She cannot force her mother to change her will. OP can be upset, or think it's not fair, can let the relationship with her mother break down but ultimately it's not in her control.

There isn't an alternative. As I've mentioned, I am in a similar position. TBH I am more worried that my sister will screw my mum out of the money she needs to live on, once my stepdad passes away. My mum has never been able to say no to her. We have a similar dynamic to the OP's family in which everything seems really 'nice' and everyone gets on well - on the surface, but under it is a different story. I don't trust my sister - who doesn't just persuade my mum to give her money, she does it to everyone, and owes money that she'll never repay to all sorts of randoms - and I'm infuriated that my mum can't see her for who she really is. My stepdad and my other sibling and myself very much can see it. It's caused endless, painful conflict within the family. I don't have any answers - I wish I did!

It is exactly the same principle, don't pretend it isn't. You pretend it isn't all about the money but it is, you are badgering your mother because you want to make sure how much you get.

If you are left anything just be grateful.

The OP has already brought this up with her mother more than once, leave the poor woman alone.

Are you an Executrix on the Will? You should be able to add it to the Estate's Accounts as an asset.

Depending on whether your Mother dies within seven years, it may be better to treat as a gift.

Either way, as Executrix, you will be obliged to declare it as the sum 'loaned' will need to be added back in and taxed accordingly.

Maybe this is a route to having the discussion?

Maybe more people on here are of a generation hoping to inherit money, maybe those of us who think you should leave your mother alone are of her generation and we are pretty disgusted at the idea that our kids would be on line plotting how to persuade us to change our wills.

@YeahIsaidit - it is interesting that you say:

“DSis asked for money OP has said she hasn't, there is nothing to show favouritism or anything to show that OP wouldn't get the same if she had asked. Nothing is hidden and DM has been honest saying that she has given/loaned the money. I know I'm in the minority here but in my opinion, that should be the extent of OPs involvement. She can say its shit/unfair but insisting DMs will is amended to reflect that isn't on. It's up to DM to ensure what she's said is adhered to, not OP regardless of how unfair she feels the situation is”

Surely what the OP is doing is effectively just what you say - asking just as her sister has asked (except rather than asking for cash she is asking for things to be resolved more clearly).

That hasn’t happened though, so there does seem to be favouritism playing out here. Dsis asks for money with vague muttering about it being a loan and she gets it. OP merely asks for clarity or some sort of evening up in the future and she is stonewalled.

There doesn’t seem to be any justification except perhaps that Dsis is the squeaky wheel and therefore she gets the oil, but ultimately the mother is playing favourites here.

You cannot do that as a parent and not expect to breed resentment, damaging not only your relationship with your child, but their relationship with each other. It is just a terrible way to deal with people.

For my part, I know my sibling has borrowed money in the past from my parents (a 5 figure sum). I believe it was recorded in writing as a loan at the time, but this was years ago and I’ve never asked about it. I know however that if I ever needed to borrow money they would lend it to me in an instant (and they have offered to lend money to me several times, presumably out of a sense of fairness). I’ve never taken them up on it as I don’t need it, but I’m grateful that they offered and I’m reassured that they would treat us both the same.

Not vile at all, and I have a great relationship with my children. Partly based on the fact that they are lovely people who aren't carving up what I possess and demanding I make wills leaving it to them. I'm not laughing at the fact that so many entitled people think they are owed an inheritance simply by virtue of the fact that they were born.

If you massively favour one child at the expense set of the other for no good reason than your own whims, you can be damn sure of creating upset and unhappiness, the ripples of which will spread long after you’re dead.

Slow handclap if that’s your plan - that is what I would consider disgusting!

Just to make it plain (yet again) -
up until now, I’ve never expressed any interest in my parents’ wills or questioned what was in them. I’d always vaguely assumed there wouldn’t be much left over, in any case. The only reason I’m asking my AIBU now is that my DM and DSis made a point of telling me what they were planning to do, which was (ostensibly) for my DM to give DSis a lump sum in lieu of part of her inheritance.

And as I keep on sayong

you say your mother is fully capable and you have no concerns whatsoever about her capacity.

So why can you not see that she’s a grown assed independent women who will document and track and balance out - as she sees fit.