To want to shout from the rooftops PLEASE don't get pregnant..

[CurlewKate]

....until you are absolutely sure that's what you want and you have thought about it and planned for it. By yourself is fine but difficult. If you're doing it with someone else, make sure he is on the same page and willing and ready and free and delighted to be a father. Contraception is incredibly reliable these days-USE it! Accidents happen occasionally, but that's what the MAP is for. If your life is very complicated or your relationship is new or fragile or volatile a baby will NOT help-I promise. It will make things worse, not better.
And breathe.....

@PrinnyPree I am not as sure as you it will be a Labour majority government, so the campaigns should extend to other non-Tory parties, especially the Lib Dems.

As for @Beezknees and shaming absent fathers, let's start with Boris Johnson. Though he should be absent from all his children as in a prison cell for a number of offences.

This situation is exactly what the OP must be referring to. YANBU OP!

It's all very well saying people have options wrt fertility.

Yes, we do, now - most of us.

But it's whether people are in a position to think properly about them and avail themselves of them.

I am in a nice, secure, professional middle-class job, married for 11y and with 3 healthy DC.

When my twins were in NICU, some of the other mums on the ward were in circumstances I'd only ever seen in the papers before. A woman in the bed opposite had FASD and had been raised in care. Her former foster parents came to visit her and IMO were quite clearly abusive. She was 19yo and struggling to care for her baby. Another woman abandoned her son whilst he was in NICU. She had given birth a fortnight or so before and was very, very thin and gaunt - I think probably an addict. She just left him. Didn't come back and visit. Another woman wasn't sure which man was her baby's father - she kept talking loudly on the phone about it, laughing etc - but frankly she sounded desperate underneath it all, utterly lacking in self-worth and purpose, and scared of at least one of the men involved. My sister fosters children and is currently looking after a sibset where the birth mum is an addict and sex worker who is being pimped out by a man we are pretty sure groomed her when she was in high school herself.

I can't even begin to fathom being in those situations and what that does to your head. My sense of what I want from life is so clear. I thought really hard about having children. I'm quite an irritable shouty parent, but I really try my best, try to give them everything and let them know they're loved. But I'm privileged, very privileged. I have no idea what I'd be like if I'd been raised in a deprived, abusive, chaotic home.

And that's who the OP is really aiming at.

Oh I agree.

I got pregnant at university and had to leave my course. The father wanted no involvement and I decided to keep her. Ive still managed to get a good job and house and I would never regret my decision, I love her so so much and she makes me so happy. I was in no way financially prepared for her or prepared in any way to be a mother but it doesn’t change that it turned out to be the best decision I ever made.

It's a bit like marriage, most couples are completely unprepared and do it because everyone else does.

This is so true . It's a step into the unknown. I've seen people who were anti kids have one by accident and they love being a parent . I've seen people who planned their child and didn't like being a parent . No one knows until it happens to you what it will be like. My tip is to just go with the flow and enjoy your child as it goes so fast . Some kids are delightful some are hard work. I've had both . It's the luck of the draw . Plus if you wait until you can afford a child you will wait forever .

I’m sorry you think that women have 100% control over whether we can get pregnant when we don’t. No contraception is 100% effective.
Im sorry you think that wanting and planning something means that you are then wholly physically and mentally prepared for the reality of something so life changing and traumatic as pregnancy, childbirth and parenthood.
Im sorry you think that this applies to men as well.
Im sorry you think that women have a sixth sense to know when their contraception has failed them the day it fails them rather than weeks or months later

Please don’t be so hard on yourself or other women or even men thinking on fatherhood. A successful pregnancy and parenthood are not as easy or as simple as a checklist of

• do you want
• have you thought about
• have you planned
• him too
• relationship good

if you tick yes to all above, then proceed with TTC and enjoy your baby.

This has warmed my heart ❤️ I hope you managed to complete your degree too

There are options if contraception fails what are open to all women (except perhaps in the rape case discussed above where NCQ was badly let down by her parents.

Get pregnant, don’t want an abortion, then don’t have one. But you’ve chosen to have that child.

I agree with the poster who said it's like marriage - people do it bc everyone else does it. It's very hard to think rationally about having dch when you've got an emotional or biological impulse to have one. But you're right, OP, it's too big a thing to go blindly into.
When I was about 18 I went out with a guy whose ex-gf was single with four kids. She told me that each was from a different boyfriend, and that she felt it was a nice thing to do for a man if you had a relationship, give him a child. At the time I thought this attitude was daft, but now, I wonder how many dch she's got, and what sort of life she's had. She was only young herself. So you're not wrong, OP, to want to get that message out there.

This in spades. ^

@CurlewKate Congratulations on posting one of the most ludicrous, ill-informed, ridiculous, incorrect, immature, and unbalanced threads on mumsnet this year. Any couple can be 100% ready (in it together) to have a baby, and have a secure home, and both have decent incomes, etc...

And then the baby comes along and BOOOOM! It all comes crashing down. The father starts messing about with another woman and has an affair, one of them loses their job and can't find another one - or has to take a much less paid one, (so the income drops,) then the mortgage rates go through the roof so they're £450-£700 a month worse off there too, the mother has post natal depression and is severely depressed and ill and cannot cope/cannot bond with the baby, the baby has various needs the couple were not expecting or prepared for and cannot cope with... etc etc etc...

Then the marriage is in crisis as the baby's father is jealous and pissed off at all the attention his wife used to give him, now being bestowed on the baby, the housework not being done, and his meals not being on the table when he gets in from work. ALL THIS, after they planned soooooo carefully! Marriage on the rocks. Baby's father leaves. Or they stay together and are desperately unhappy.

With all the best intentions and plans, anything can go wrong, and go amiss, and anything can change.

Conversely someone can have a baby that wasn't planned with a partner they have only been with for a year, and they're as happy as pigs in shite. Dream baby, brings them closer together, they get married, build a home together and they have a (mostly) good life!

NOTHING. IS. CERTAIN. Your posts are patronising and condescending and ill-informed. And you're pretty arrogant to think you have the right to start this thread yelling at people to not have a baby unless the conditions suit YOU.

OP you do realise that DV can become apparent after a woman has got pregnant? So making the choice to get pregnant before this comes to light is a very different matter.

Accidents happen occasionally, but that's what the MAP is for.

You also realise that alot of women don't know contraception has failed immediately to to obtain MAP. Sure if they used a condom they'd know instantly but other forms no.

I don't think this is about women finding themselves in difficult circumstances after having children or partners dumping them or changing after the baby comes.

It's the women who repeat the same mistakes over and over. As soon as one abusive arse has left she's lining up the next one and looking to get pregnant.

There was the thread from the woman who had 4 kids from 3 men wondering if she did the right thing getting rid of the latest bf who was abusive to her son.

There was a woman with 6 kids from 2 men,pregnant from a ons wondering if she should keep the baby. She then posted to say she took the pills and was being comforted by another man she'd met 5 minutes ago.

Another women saying she was dumped for having 2 young children and wondering if she had got pregnant would her boyfriend

You can talk about men being accountable and responsible, but they won't value women if women don't value themselves.

I mean in an ideal world yes, but you can shout all you like, some women for whatever reason probably (but not always) from a dysfunctional background themselves with no idea what a healthy, stable relationship is will get pregnant with terrible men. It'll never end. Just like on here women will continue to get pregnant with their boyfriends of 12 months, then decide they won't return to their low paying jobs, their boyfriend will leave after a year or 2 leaving her on benefits and no hope of improving her life (she had no career or prospects to start with, she just has the added responsibility of a baby now).

Do we say that only successful people who have a career, who have dated years, then got married, bought a house only then start to consider a family? This is the ideal setup and yes what most people in my circle have done, but relationships still breakdown even in this perfect scenario. Children end up being passed around by parents and all the upset that goes with that. My friend's husband turned abusive after marriage and kids, they had the perfect setup both professionals lovely house in a nice area, but it still went wrong. Granted my friend still has her career and can afford to live as a single parent, her husband also earns well, but their children still have the upset of their parents living apart, less than ideal.

I agrees that some people rush into unsuitable relationships and are pregnant after 20 minutes. I do wonder if you judge the professional women in their late 30s who do this because they are running out of time to have children the same as you judge the women in their early 20s who are in the exact same position (pregnant by someone unsuitable) but have no career or money. Is this whole thread just about poor people having children rather than anything else?

The idea of trying to influence other women's fertility choices in line with a specific personal view of what is optimum makes me uncomfortable.
If we are concerned about the wellbeing of women and children who lack the things in your post then we should be looking at how as a society we can improve that, not trying to qualify women's right to be mothers.
I'm not oppose to the idea of individual responsibility but I can't get on board with the imposition of a checklist of criteria women should meet before we support their right to reproduce. Its the principle. Where would this end? Minimum income, house of a certain size, support from extended family, good health, minimum level of intelligence?

I really don't get women having kids when their knocking 50 it's like a trend .
But when some of these mums have kids it's like all they want is help and baby sitters FFS you had kids you look after them it's called responsibility.
Not other peoples responsibility.
Yes I get that child care is needed at times but it's not all the time is it there your children.
Then there's the ones that married a man with kids then don't like the step kids . Not forgetting the split ups and divorces and the need for money off the ex yes I get they need to pay but but some are asking for hundreds a month when it would benefit the child to just have a trust fund . And yes some women do it a lone like I did with 2 (not once I asked for a penny from the dad as I didn't want him saying I this I that I paid for my kids my self why would I want his dirty money when he couldn't be man enough to stick around their adults now ) I never had any help at all from family and only got child care when they went to school I was the mum I was the parent no nights out nothing i made time to become a nurse. It was bloody hard but I did it my self all of it .
I was a young mum (19 )and got a lot of hate and stigma but I' made it and have a lot of fun now my biggest hater was my own sister that said I would be nothing 25 year on she has two kids under 5 at 47 and all she wants is a baby sitter and help .you can all guess who she asked well I'm to busy being nothing was my reply harsh but worth the wait to say it .

“Life is what happens while you were making other plans”.
I had two babies with my much loved DH who was a wonderful father and partner.
He died unexpectedly at 36, of a brain haemorrhage, before our second baby’s first birthday.
I had to raise my DDs for 18 years as a single parent while working full time as a doctor. Not a position I ever expected or intended to be in.

I agree with the poster who said that having children should be seen much more as an opt In choice that you have to justify/think carefully about and not an automatic position that you have to justify opting out of. The same goes for being part of a couple at all costs.

There will still be the whole range of people's lived experiences, which can't be shoved into neat boxes, but if the cultural and educational narrative changed, it might help more people make the right choices for themselves.

Surely you're not saying that only the middles classes (and higher) and people who have university degrees should have children?

Not at all and I'm not sure how you read that from my post?

Merely saying that people should think about why they want children - not that they need to have x or y in order to do so.

I think contraception should be more accessible.

I know technically it’s there and it’s free but I’ve seen a big difference in the last 10-15 years. Back then I found it really quick and easy to go to the GP and get long-acting contraception, there was also a dedicated clinic in town with good opening hours. Now that clinic is long-gone and I had to wait over 3 MONTHS to get an implant fitted at the drs.

Also difficult to obtain MAP for free as impossible to get through to GP in the morning and fully-booked, many don’t have the time from work to sit in the walk-on centre for hours where they’ll probably be judged and made to feel like a time waster for using that service for the MAP.
So off to Boots and £40 it is.

Yes termination is an option, but not every woman can choose a termination due to her own religious or personal beliefs or even her own living situation as forced birth is still a thing in certain families. It’s not a free, easy or accessible decision to make for all women.

In addition, 1/3rd of women will experience complications in childbirth that cause injury and for many life long PTSD. This can then affect their mental health and ability to mother their baby. It’s not an endeavour without risk.

In addition, even if you have a baby that you genuinely think you want, parenthood comes with a 17% regret rate because you just don’t know the reality of it until you are a parent. This is human.

The OP is oversimplifying what is actually a very stressful and complex endeavour. Just because millions of women do it every year, that doesn’t make it easy and the success in terms of happiness or good outcomes is not in the mothers power to control. There’s a lot of a lottery to it.

I'm not oppose to the idea of individual responsibility but I can't get on board with the imposition of a checklist of criteria women should meet before we support their right to reproduce. Its the principle. Where would this end? Minimum income, house of a certain size, support from extended family, good health, minimum level of intelligence?

^This. I think too often this sort of checklist thinking verges into victim blaming.