To want to shout from the rooftops PLEASE don't get pregnant..

[CurlewKate]

....until you are absolutely sure that's what you want and you have thought about it and planned for it. By yourself is fine but difficult. If you're doing it with someone else, make sure he is on the same page and willing and ready and free and delighted to be a father. Contraception is incredibly reliable these days-USE it! Accidents happen occasionally, but that's what the MAP is for. If your life is very complicated or your relationship is new or fragile or volatile a baby will NOT help-I promise. It will make things worse, not better.
And breathe.....

In my opinion a more useful advice to women would be don’t have a baby if you are selfish and not prepared to give up the old you, be reborn as a mother and dedicate yourself 100% to the well-being of your children.

No parent actually does this though…

These threads piss me off, because there's always so many people who are defensive about their own situations, like this one for instance.

Because, based on the OP, this doesn't mean you at all does it?

Not sure why expressing that women should make informed decisions about having children is a bad thing. And while I agree that having a child can make you feel unsure and unready and scared, that's the point. A lot of big decisions are like this - that's why you give them some serious thought and mitigate for any issues. Like, I dunno, making sure you have a new job to go to before you quit your old one.

It's naive and immature to treat grown women like children who have no agency over their own bodies and their own decisions about having children (yes I know there are circumstances where this isn't the case - in which case I'm not talking about them)

'Octogirl
How is your dad not tidying up or washing his own plate an indicator of a doomed childhood of abuse and neglect, and tragedy as you say?

I've said nothing of the sort - I think you're confusing me with another poster.

(But actually, as you've raised this point - personally I would see a man who didn't share chores equally as a bright red flag. If he doesn't help before a baby is brought into the mix, God help everyone afterwards!)

Your other, later point: that 'we' (whoever 'we' are) are preaching when we've never been in the situation of having an unwanted pregnancy: you don't have to be that actual person to be aware that unwanted pregnancies bring many problems, for the mother, the child and society in general. That's what I mean by it being everyone's business because people in this situation will probably need considerable support (or even intervention), so it's not just a private matter.

I've not confused anything. Op and others have preached that women should know not to get or egg any of their DH isn't good at cooking or cleaning.

Please explain how that causes a life of tragedy misery abuse and neglect etc?

How does someone having an unwanted pregnancy (very common) automatically cause that either? You know married couples and people in LTRs have that right? It's not just women having ONS, which is less common?

And yes, babe, preaching. Nobody is going to listen to randoms ranting on Mumsnet. People with serious issues relating to abuse (where children may actually be at risk) needs professional support. Someone who's Uber sensible and did everything right preaching about it on Mumsnet isn't going to change anything

Egg any their = pregnant 😒

Ranting about trivial issues like DH a can't cook or clean effectively is really too much. Ranting about people who haven't planned their baby and tried for 5 years and therefore aren't capable of being a parent 😒

I agree with you. Of course relationships break down but at least the children were conceived in a mutually loving relationship.
The number of children being dragged up in unsuitable homes is disgraceful. One should have to pass some basic tests before being permitted to have children.
Society does not need the children of people who can’t be good parents. There’s an interesting chapter in Freakonomics on the link between abortion and reducing crime statistics in New York.

It's also simplistic to suggest life is as straightforward as using a checklist to make life's big decisions. Stating that having children is a big decision, worthy of a huge discussion, sometimes years in the making is not the enlightenment is made out to be on here, we've heard all the inane platitudes about this before- lots been mentioned on here and by the OP. I had two babies where I had/have a connection with the person who is their father. We didn't have a massive discussion, he was still training to be an Architect, we were still renting a studio flat, we had only been together two years, we just did it, there was no check list. Something can be one of the best things you have done and it can still entail difficulties but I'd rather be playing the game and try to win the prize than have not played and have no chance of the prize, to me that is what 'living' is!

Curlew Kate
Could you let me know, for future reference, how you extrapolated that from my post?

I know, Curlew! There's a lot of extrapolating going on here...some very defensive posters putting words in pp's mouths.

@Goldenbear a very positive adoption, which many were when young women often had no way to support a child. So many of the children adopted or in care nowadays are damaged before they find a loving home, if they ever do. Their conception and infancy can do so much harm which may not be immediately apparent.

Adoptive parents are scrutinised to the nth degree, but some posters seem to think that the rights of everyone to give birth outweighs the responsibility.

I know right! You just make sweeping uninformed statements about other people's lives and next thing you know, they're challenging you!

Maybe next time go and talk in a mirror to yourself if you don't want posters who talk back?

Still none the wiser as to how a useless DH; contraceptive failure (not even poverty😒); lack of financial stability (with or without a LTR) causes abuse, neglect, misery and tragedy, for children, Coffee?

I don't really understand the point you are making but I haven't suggested any kind of theory of rights over responsibilities. If you are suggesting that when the big conversation happens about children this automatically equates to end result - positive,I don't agree.

Is a site called "Mumsnet" really the rooftop to shout this from? Closing the stable door and all that......

Yes, this but who is this actually aimed at. Is the demographic of abusers, that some posters are implying are the result of these ill thought out pregnancies, do these people frequent MN. It reads to me as a shout out to all losers in the country that have not had years of discussions and procrastination over having children with their partner- perfect Pete, will he launder his pants do you have that signed off in a contract that applies 5 years post birth or have the posters who are even more superior, the ones that have actually rebuffed relationships as what is the point if you are in a situationship anyway and romantic pursuits show deep insecurities on anyone's part as we all know!

Your opening words really sum up my issue. I have no idea who the OP's post is actually aimed at.

My comments weren’t aimed at you at all. Perhaps my wording was clumsy, but the discussion has touched on children being born to fathers who shirk any responsibility, and mothers who make the mistake over again. I picked up on the mention of adoption, and just thought how different it is today, as many of the children being adopted and fostered are very often the result of these liaisons.

Oh, I see, shirking responsibility isn't great but does that apply to many people reading MN.

@Octogirl

I have no problem with people challenging things I've written/said.

It's people making things up which I've not said that causes the difficulty!!

You are taking everything on this thread much too personally.

Still none the wiser as to how a useless DH; contraceptive failure (not even poverty😒); lack of financial stability (with or without a LTR) causes abuse, neglect, misery and tragedy, for children, Coffee?

Perhaps not abuse or neglect etc. But useless men becoming fathers definitely leads to cycles of poverty that make children’s lives harder.

And a lot of posters here who have difficulty reading. ‘I know right’ when the op was quoting my post that wasn’t even directed at them….

This thread is getting a bit cray

Fully agree with you! Too many people who should not have children are having too many. The lower the IQ the higher the number on children.

And a lot of posters here who have difficulty reading. ‘I know right’ when the op was quoting my post that wasn’t even directed at them….

So it's you that made a daft comment. Thank you for owning up, Gertrude.

So stop replying then? If you hadn't mentioned abuse neglect cruelty and misery I wouldn't even have read your comment. I'm just a bit baffled as to where you got that from in this thread and intrigued more than anything.

…. Oh dear lord. Not only can’t you comprehend the op was getting wound up at something not even directed at her, you can’t even have the decency to get a username right 🤣