Page 5 | To think being female and white is what meant Lucy Letby could continue her crimes?

sociallyanxiouspartone · 2023-08-27T10:18:59+00:00

Let's face it, the reality is as women we are often disadvantaged but being a woman in this case is what meant Lucy went under the radar for so long and the fact she was white combined with this and looked like the 'girl next door' is what meant more babies lost their lives than needed to. Just imagine, a male non white nurse was in the same position he would have been called out much much earlier Let's hope this helps people think about how harmful stereotyping can actually be. Sorry to all the families that lost babies in all of this 💐

Inmybirthdaysuit · 27/08/2023 12:45

Saschka · 27/08/2023 12:20

The implication being she doesn’t look like a murderer who in our heads is more likely to be male and/or black

Your racism is showing. Do people really believe, against all the evidence, that serial killers are more likely to be black than white? Can you name even one black British serial killer? I can‘t. They are usually white men.

Yeah I was thinking about this and no murderers aren't more likely to be black in ny head at all. Male yes but not black/brown. I live in Ireland, the majority of people here are white, when I hear of a murder I always think man but never think black/brown when I'm imagining the person, I would think most people are the same. I don't think in the UK there are many high profile black killers are there? Not to the point where people are imagining murderers to be black in their head? Maybe for a London street stabbing but not for baby murdering in a hospital ward?

Sayitaintso33 · 27/08/2023 12:45

Pollyputhekettleon · 27/08/2023 12:13

Ignoring the race-baiting, it's a simple fact that women are vastly less likely to murder someone else's babies than men are. And that's in circumstances where women make up most of those working with babies, so due to access alone they should be over-represented. And neonatal nurses are even less likely to than your average woman because of the type of personality that generally chooses such a job. Those aren't 'stereotypes' in the sense you mean the word. They're statistical probabilities. So in the absence of any other information it's absolutely rational to be more likely to suspect a man than a woman.

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Whilst they are statistical probabilities you have not given us the statistics. If you had they would demonstrate how misleading your argument is and your stereotypes are.

Let us say, pre Letby, one in a million female nurses murdered an infant patient. Let us say that a male nurse was a hundred times more likely to murder an infant patient. Then one in ten thousand male nurses would be an infant patient murderer, meaning that nine thousand, nine hundred and ninety nine would not.

Can you really apply a stereotype that does not apply to 9,999 out of every 10,0000?

Scienceadvisory · 27/08/2023 12:45

Lantyslee · 27/08/2023 11:32

And yet being Asian allowed the rape gangs in Rotherham and elsewhere get away with their crimes because the authorities thought they might be seen as racist. I think believing LL wasn't investigated sooner because she was white is quite a reach.

Edited

This was my first thought when reading the OP. It's more than possible the hospital management would have been too scared racism accusations to step in.

NeverDropYourMooncup · 27/08/2023 12:46

I think that the anonymous 'Doctor friend' who was telling her about investigations when they should have been kept absolutely confidential has a bearing on this. Was he the only one who did this? Or did she have other 'Friends' who kept her safe and made sure she was always given the benefit of the doubt/blamed somebody else probably not young, pretty and white in previous years?

BCBird · 27/08/2023 12:46

I disagree re her being female and white. I a female and not white don't know if that relevant or not.

DarkForces · 27/08/2023 12:47

I'm hoping we never have enough cases to analyse this.

Annaissleeping · 27/08/2023 12:47

Someone even described her as ‘butter wouldn’t melt’ based on her pictures. How on earth can you tell?

To that I want to roll my eyes and say 'really?!' We make split second judgements all the time. We have to, for our survival. If you were walking down a dark alley late at night, you'd very quickly clock LL behind you and make the judgement she was no threat, compared to a 6ft 5, muscly man. We spend our whole existences categorising people. There is nothing wrong with judging photos of this criminal as depicting someone who looked sweet and non-threatening.

almostoverthehill · 27/08/2023 12:49

FGS really ? I understand that of serial killers most are white.

LakeTiticaca · 27/08/2023 12:49

@furyshshdh so did the police but they were scared of being accused of racism so the poor girls were sacrificed on the altar of "diversity and inclusion"

Baldieheid · 27/08/2023 12:50

What does a serial killer look like?

Are there any characteristics that allow us to spot them just by their appearance?

Phrenology was debunked in victorian times, wasn't it?

Luckydip1 · 27/08/2023 12:53

I think the problem is that the NHS is so overstretched and understaffed, it is almost impossible to lose your job in the NHS.

TheKeatingFive · 27/08/2023 12:54

Definitely, but it's not solely about race.

She is white, middle class, attractive, educated, 'nice'. A whole host of factors combined.

ruby1957 · 27/08/2023 12:55

almostoverthehill · 27/08/2023 12:49

FGS really ? I understand that of serial killers most are white.

In an 80%+ white country - that would be expected BUT it is not so just because they happen to be white!

Race is not a relevant factor.

ntmdino · 27/08/2023 12:55

Pollyputhekettleon · 27/08/2023 12:36

You left out a minor detail - whether the woman those children were killed by was their mother or not. Men are orders of magnitude more likely to kill an unrelated child than women are.

Women are on average higher in the personality trait of agreeableness than men are. That's where the 'stereotype' of women being more nurturing comes from. It's true. I suspect it only offends people who don't understand statistics.

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I must admit, I've not delved into it too deeply - the main reason being the scarcity of source data. It's not really possible to assert that particular detail with any confidence, because of the lack of available data (unless you have access to data that I haven't seen, of course), and even the fact that murders in general are incredibly rare doesn't help. When there are only about 50 murders per year where the victim's under 16, it's really hard to generalise (which, let's face it, is difficult to complain about).

Dotcheck · 27/08/2023 12:56

Theborder · 27/08/2023 11:26

I think her whole persona enabled it the fact that she was:

*young

a nurse
white
university educated
middle class

AND also the fact that she was a raging, manipulative individual who even had the capacity to get the consultants to apologise to her. Being white was ONE factor of MANY, but in no way was it the full picture.

Edited

Were they middle class?

CherryMaDeara · 27/08/2023 12:56

I think it’s a combination of things. Lucy was described as ‘beige’ by the police. She was the poster girl for nursing, she even featured on the brochure for the hospital! A blonde young woman, who liked to go Las Iguanas for drinks and salsa classes and had posters like ‘Happy Prosecco Season’. She blended in because she was ‘beige’.

I also think it’s interesting that the parents of the murdered babies have asked for their ethnicities not to be disclosed to the public.

Pollyputhekettleon · 27/08/2023 12:57

Sayitaintso33 · 27/08/2023 12:45

Whilst they are statistical probabilities you have not given us the statistics. If you had they would demonstrate how misleading your argument is and your stereotypes are.

Let us say, pre Letby, one in a million female nurses murdered an infant patient. Let us say that a male nurse was a hundred times more likely to murder an infant patient. Then one in ten thousand male nurses would be an infant patient murderer, meaning that nine thousand, nine hundred and ninety nine would not.

Can you really apply a stereotype that does not apply to 9,999 out of every 10,0000?

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You're extremely incoherent and don't understand statistics at all. I wouldn't know where to begin with this so I'm not going to try.

Malarandras · 27/08/2023 12:58

Harold Shipman was a white man. These people are master manipulators who develop complex and highly effective ways of masking who they really are so they can do what they do. That’s why they get away with it for so long. Their societal facade helps but it is not the whole reason they stay hidden for so long.

Livelovebehappy · 27/08/2023 12:58

Tbh, can happen the other way. Local care home here has just had a WOC employee arrested for cruelty to residents. There were suspicions as far back as 2021 apparently when an elderly lady with dementia had her arm broken, but the management thought complaints at the time were based on racism from some relatives. Only now being investigated because a resident placed a camera in her mother’s room following her getting a black eye.

furyshshdh · 27/08/2023 13:00

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LightSpeeds · 27/08/2023 13:00

Well, she was called out on it and, like a PP said, NHS management didn't want to do anything. My experience of most managers is that they don't want to deal with issues involving people!

SkinnyMalinkyLankyLegs · 27/08/2023 13:00

AIstolemylunch · 27/08/2023 11:23

I disagree with you. I think she was able to continue for so long because most people don't murder babies and normal people woukdnt suspect anyone of doing that. It's only when the evidence became overwhelming that they realised. I think this would have been the same for a male or non white nurse or doctor.

Exactly this. Plus she was 'nice'.

Pollyputhekettleon · 27/08/2023 13:01

ntmdino · 27/08/2023 12:55

I must admit, I've not delved into it too deeply - the main reason being the scarcity of source data. It's not really possible to assert that particular detail with any confidence, because of the lack of available data (unless you have access to data that I haven't seen, of course), and even the fact that murders in general are incredibly rare doesn't help. When there are only about 50 murders per year where the victim's under 16, it's really hard to generalise (which, let's face it, is difficult to complain about).

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I think you're limiting your sources to the UK. There's global data which does have very usable numbers. Murders are far from rare in some parts of the world. I have seen the data, I looked into it at one point because I was interested in the phenomenon of stepfathers murdering and abusing stepchildren at a higher rate than biological fathers, and what causes that. But I'm afraid I'm not going to go finding it again sorry.

tsmainsqueeze · 27/08/2023 13:01

AIstolemylunch · 27/08/2023 11:23

I disagree with you. I think she was able to continue for so long because most people don't murder babies and normal people woukdnt suspect anyone of doing that. It's only when the evidence became overwhelming that they realised. I think this would have been the same for a male or non white nurse or doctor.

I think this too , it's just so inconceivable that someone would do such a thing in that environment.

Eleganz · 27/08/2023 13:03

Haven't read all the posts but I think tribalism between health professions played a huge role in this case as did senior managers not being objective about staff they saw as close colleagues.

It was clear that the senior nursing manager was protecting Letby through what looks like a mixture of her being a close colleague and the fact that complaints came from doctors about her conduct. It sounds like the medical director was also just trying to go for an easy life by just shutting down the complaints from professionals he had direct control over rather than facing a potentially damaging investigation where it was doctors Vs nurses.

Of course Letby's characteristics will have played a role but there are a range of factors here and we can't ignore the professional dynamics and politics in the NHS.