To think being female and white is what meant Lucy Letby could continue her crimes?

[sociallyanxiouspartone]

Let's face it, the reality is as women we are often disadvantaged but being a woman in this case is what meant Lucy went under the radar for so long and the fact she was white combined with this and looked like the 'girl next door' is what meant more babies lost their lives than needed to.

Just imagine, a male non white nurse was in the same position he would have been called out much much earlier

Let's hope this helps people think about how harmful stereotyping can actually be.

Sorry to all the families that lost babies in all of this 💐

I agree with most of this but I also think that her youth and general demeanour meant that she looked kind and “nice” .
Sadly people assume that people who do monstrous , unbelievable things look like monsters. I think we all naturally hope that a twisted mind is visible in someone’s face and general behaviour, as then we feel safer. It seems impossible that a smiley, totally normal looking young woman could be a mass murderer.

I didn't say she got away with it because she's a white woman. And she didn't get away with it as she's now in prison. However, I absolutely am open to the idea that her race/sex/looks meant she went undetected for longer than she otherwise might have been

I agree with this. I don’t think it’s a race issue or even a gender issue. I think it’s that most nurses do not kill babies. It’s inconceivable to any normal person. So the evidence had to really pile up before they took action.

Just imagine, a male non white nurse was in the same position he would have been called out much much earlier

Not in the healthcare setting, and no need to imagine as it actually happened, but West Yorkshire police resisted investigating grooming gangs for a long time because the perpetrators weren’t white.

This is true too. We want evil people to be markedly different. We want to see evil so we can avoid it.

I obviously meant that she got away for it for so long, as per the OP.

The implication being she doesn’t look like a murderer who in our heads is more likely to be male and/or black.

I don't think she doesn't look like a murderer because she not a black femal, a black male or a white male.

I don't think she looks like a murderer because it's very hard to see any of the typical dead eye coldness or craziness in her face, that I associate with murderers.

The before arrest photos look "normal", warm even.

The arrest photos looks miserable and sad.

I think her culpability is highly highly likely, yet I still have problems reconciling that to her face & demeanour.

(Obviously haven't seen her talk etc though).

Identity politics is divisive, I agree with pp that we want to trust medical professionals whatever their background.

The erosion of trust in institutions we previously respected (medicine, law enforcement, education) is a worrying development.

Agree. Nobody could believe it of Shipman either, and he was male. It’s because it isn’t very common.

Usually you can see some psychopathy/sociopathy in the eyes and expression of murderers, I find.

(Beverly Allit didn't look cold or dead eyed per se, but she still had a look of inanity/stupidity about her in her photos).

I agree. I don't think it was about "most people don't murder babies" at least at the beginning. The first whistle blowers were questioning her competence, not her intent.

I agree, without getting into race or sex, the natural assumption is also that people don't do that ..so you'd look for other explanations.

Though with the Allit case relatively recent ish ... I don't know why the thought wouldn't occur to some extent.

..and YABVU

Yes if she was a BAME and/or from overseas I think concerns would have been acted on earlier. I also think there would not have been a small but vocal minority on MN who "aren't convinced by the evidence" and less general hand wringing about "why"

I think in this case the reason she wasn't caught quickly was because the hospital management were covering things up and not following procedure.

Ignoring the race-baiting, it's a simple fact that women are vastly less likely to murder someone else's babies than men are. And that's in circumstances where women make up most of those working with babies, so due to access alone they should be over-represented. And neonatal nurses are even less likely to than your average woman because of the type of personality that generally chooses such a job. Those aren't 'stereotypes' in the sense you mean the word. They're statistical probabilities. So in the absence of any other information it's absolutely rational to be more likely to suspect a man than a woman.

Oh here we go again

No. It was her demeanor that made her look innocent. Same with Shipman. Dedicated nurse dedicated doctor that was what misled people and made them trust these evil people. A big burly tough looking man probably wouldn't look so innocent.

Fully disagree. Nobody there could even let themselves believe this was happening because it’s too unthinkable, not because of anyone’s colour.

Of course

She is white and she is middle class and comes from a nice family unit there is already an idea of what she is like as a person

The implication being she doesn’t look like a murderer who in our heads is more likely to be male and/or black

Your racism is showing. Do people really believe, against all the evidence, that serial killers are more likely to be black than white? Can you name even one black British serial killer? I can‘t. They are usually white men.

No I didn't mean to say that. I meant to say - OP you cannot create an imaginary scenario and say that in this imaginary scenario, such and such a thing would definitely happen, unless you have some form of evidence or precedent to support that argument. Or at least, you can say it but that doesn't mean you are correct.

I am sorry that you are confused about this.

I think it is possible that someone from an ethnic minority, someone who moved to work in the NHS from abroad, or a male nurse, the alarm would have been raised earlier and taken more seriously.

I don't think the Doncaster scandal is a useful parallel, after all South Yorkshire police failed during the miners strike, lied over Hillsborough and no doubtless many other failings. West Yorkshire police covered up Jimmy Savile's crimes and indeed socialised with him.

@Comedycook exactly. Perception is skewed based on stereotypes.

She didn’t go under the radar though, she was reported multiple times by various members of staff but this was suppressed by very senior staff. The reasons for that appear to be about protecting themselves/the hospitals reputation rather than her being a white woman.

That said, it wouldn’t surprise me if her being a young pretty white woman made it ‘easier’ for them to make that decision..