ExH undermining me with Brownies and theres nothing I can do

[TheBrowniesFundraiserforHoliday]

DD is 9 and a Brownie.

Going on pack holiday at October Half Term for 5 nights (Friday to Thursday).

She was supposed to fundraise for it over the summer holidays, they literally needed to raise £20 each, the rest was being topped up by parents (and there are funds for those who may not be able to find the extra £30 to go)

She has refused to fundraise. A friend of mine asked her (with my supervision) to feed her cats twice a day and would pay her £5 she didn’t do it, so I did it. My parents offered for her to walk their dog while they were working and they’d give her £10. That’s £15 before she’s tried to do anything else.

DDs Sixer suggested their six get together in the summer and run a book stall at the local supermarket to raise funds, they had 140 books, they could have sold them for £1 each and raised the money easily. Her friends took part but she wouldn’t, I offered to stay and supervise and Brown Owl also did an hour with them and DD refused. They sold all 140 books and made £100, which is nearly all the money for all of the places in the 6.

Any suggestion to do it is met with “Well I want to go but won’t be making the money myself for it”. She’s been rude to me telling me I will give her the money and she will be going.

I said no, you won’t be going as you’ve not worked for it. There’s still time between now and the deadline to make the money though.

DD has spent the week at ExHs and come home today.

She’s just told me that not only is she going on pack holiday but dad is going to say she helped to weed the garden for it. She didn’t she’s boasted about not doing it.

The Friday they go falls on his weekend so I can’t even stop her, and because of the way holiday contact falls he’d have had her until the Wednesday anyway, so I’d be pulling her out for effectively 15 hours (handover is 6pm on the Wednesday and they get picked up by us 10am Thursday).

I don’t know how to go forward with this. Do I talk to Brown Owl? Or just leave it?

For context; if she’d raised say £10 or £15 and was very close I’d of course have given her the extra money, it’s the fact she’s done nothing and will still get to go.

I pay for Brownies, and its in the week which during Term Time ExH doesn’t see her in the week. He has her 1 night a month in Term Time and 50% in the school holidays.

*I'm quite surprised how strongly people feel about this and am really taken aback by the amount of posters saying to pull your dd out of Brownies over it.

The thing is - What is it that people object to?*

The attitude and the lying.

Yes, adults would have to facilitate the fundraising, and some of it is probably a bit for show (they might not really need someone feeding the cats etc). But Guiding is an organisation run by volunteers, to encourage good citizenship and the idea of helping in society. Children get some really good opportunities through it, provided at a cost that is far lower than the equivalent elsewhere, partly because of the goodwill of other people. Part of the deal, IMO, is that the children start to learn those values too - that is a good thing to help people, to work for things, to work as a group, etc. Fundraising isn't exactly just doing things out of kindness (we weren't usually allowed to accept money for doing good turns, but this is kind of different) - but it still helps with the attitude that you have to give something back to the world - in this case, by not expecting the whole pack holiday to be free, but have to work in some way for it.

If I were in this position I would probably say something like: -

"This doesn't need to be a battle. You want to go on this trip. I want you to go on this trip. Dad has given you the money which is lovely. Everyone else will have probably worked to pay for their trip though.

If you lie about the gardening you'll probably feel bad about it and really awkward your mates and Brown Owl. You could easily make that money! I get you didn't want to do the book sale. Is there anything you do want to do? We could list some stuff on Ebay if you want. You could wash the car, do some gardening for real. It can be fun, you know!"

Take the confrontation out of it.

It's a very tricky one. I think it's unlikely that she's the only one who hasn't done the fundraising, it may well be that some other parents have just paid the extra £20 rather than fundraised it.

However, the lying would bother me. I'd probably just tell Brown Owl, and I'd also tell my DD how disappointed I was in her. And also explain how I'd find it hard to believe things she said in future, as you know she is prepared to lie. I'd also make her pay the £20 (deduct it from future pocket money).

But don't cancel Brownies or the camp, as kids get so much from this.

As a cub leader, if it were a cub in my pack, I'd talk to the entire pack about our Promise, and what it means to be a cub. I'd also talk to the cub separately, telling them I know they'd lied, and how difficult it would be to trust them in future. I'd ask them how they would intend to behave going forward, and what they could do to make amends/follow their Promise.

But I'd also be aware that the Cub Promise says that the cubs will do their best. This means that it's ok to slip up sometimes, nobody's perfect.

The rudeness I would deal with in whatever way you normally deal with this.

I would sit her down and say I will be talking to brown owl and explaining what’s happened. Can you think of any reasons I should also not say that I will be withdrawing you from brownies? You’re clearly not interested in keeping the brown owl promises you made, so I can’t see any other course of action right now.

also I would absolutely stop backing your ex up when she’s rude to him or his parents!’ I’d say calmly I will absolutely back you up in encouraging good behaviour as much as you do for me. That’s not at all currently as you well know, and it leads to very challenging behaviour from dd which will make life harder for her, so here we are.

You can't stop her going. The trip is on his time, he has PR and he's going to take her. Having the leaders refuse to take her because if a lack of fund raising is going to cause more trouble. I would however have brown owl explain how disappointed she is in your daughters attitude and that it doesn't reflect the values of the pack. I honestly don't see what more you could do.

She can pull her out of the club though, and there's nothing her ex could do about that.

With regard to the fundraising though, the fundraising is all a bit of an illusion, being facilitated by the grown ups. The adults would be supervising any dog walking / cat feeding / book sales. The books would be provided by an adult. The adults don't really need her to feed their cat or walk their dog.

True but it also
A) teaches the value of working for something
B) helps those who may not have the money be able to raise it without just asking for donations

Brownies is run by volunteers so any funds needed to cover less well off families have to be raised/donated somewhere along the lines. Many of the volunteers running it may pay for their own costs towards these activities as well if funds are not available to cover them.

I am quite surprised at the number of posters who seem to think a volunteer would welcome being dragged into a parenting dispute and asked to have difficult conversations with a child on behalf of the parents.

I would not pull her out of brownies , she needs the encouragement to learn values and brownies will support that . Perhaps confide in Brown Owl and she may give her some extra jobs to do on the holiday , her dad is a knob and you can’t change that unfortunately!

I've been Brown Owl. I'm sure if you have a word with her she'd theme an evening around honesty and the rewards for honest work.

This is perfect

Well, now we know why she has the attitude and refused to do anything. ExH is trying to win love and favor by being the fun dad, the good dad, the dad that never disciplines.
This is really hard, because anything you do is basically over punishing her because of his actions. I have never really believed in punishing children for the things their parents make them do. She may be getting something out of it that is not just the money. I mean, if that is the only way he shows his affection to her, then of course she would do everything to get it.
My advice would be to sit her down and have a talk with her. I would not pull her out of the brownies for this. for one thing, her dad is making her have an attitude that other children her age are not going to put up with. So, she may self-regulate in order to not alienate people or may become a victim of bullying. I would keep an eye out for both, but would not just pull her out.
I think a talk about right and wrong, about how much fun she missed not doing all the activities to earn with her friends or to play with the dogs. I would also question her to see if the reason is really that she didn't want to do anything out of already knowing dad would give the money, but if it is out of social anxiety or anxiety in general. Or fear of doing a bad job or something.

I'd tell Brown Owl and ask for their support. And I'd tell DD and ex that I'd done it. Unbelievable that he thinks this is the right message to give her.

I'd get Brown Owl to remind her of some home truths about what Brownies are all about. Maybe a reminder of the Brownie Story for a start (rude, selfish child who won't help goes in search of a magic elf who does housework and gets told to look in the water for the elf ...sound familiar?)

And the Brownie Promise to do your best, and the Brownie Guide Law which she is currently breaking. I'm not sure a Brownie who can't do those things would be welcome at Pack Holiday...

(I'm interested whether they are usually unable to do helpful tasks as it's a sign of both ASD and ADHD in girls and requires a great deal of support if so.)

It’s not a hill to die on. You’ve made your position clear, she’ll work it out in a few years and realise that it was a shit move. Onwards!

Your kid is a brat and you need to clamp
down

I would too. She is being an entitled brat.

Pick your battles - this is just not worth the fight. Let her go.

She is 9 years old. Don’t let her tell you she isn’t doing it. Tell her she is. End of. Who rules the roost here? My daughter is 9. She would be given one choice - fundraise and go on the trip or don’t fundraise and you don’t get to go.

Sounds like he can pay for brownies from now on.

Lots of people saying get Brown Owl involved to speak to DS but that’s not really their role; they’re unpaid volunteers not counsellors. Believe me your DS is not the only entitled brat in the pack! I’d make DS know how disappointed I was at her deceit and rudeness but apart from that there’s not much you can do here.

Not sure if I'm missing something but if you are the one that deals with brownies and related paperwork you can speak to brown owl and simply withdraw her from camp. Tell ex that she no longer has a space! He can turn up all he wants if she's not booked on she can't go. It needs done in advance, it's not just turn up and sign up on the day .

But that's fine if you're the only one in charge. In this case taking this line will not work as the child's father has already said she can have the money. He has equal authority to the child's mother. One parent taking an opposite stance to the other is going to cause serious problems

Just think for a minute how that will end. Devastated child, humiliated and shamed, awkwardness for leaders, gossip for all the other parents at dirty laundry aired in public, sounds like a total nightmare, and that's before you even get onto the damage caused to the mother daughter relationship and co parent relationship.

I agree with this. This is not an isolated incident, it will be the first of many over the teenage years, you will repeatedly try to discipline your daughter and she will run to her dad and he will just give her whatever she wants for an easy life. You cannot control your daughter by enforcing your will and you definitely can't control your ex. You can stop her going on pack holiday or withdraw her from brownies but those are hugely drastic punishments for something that is the result of parental disagreement (on the face of it her dad giving her £20 towards pack holiday isn't even a bad thing to do - don't blow it out of proportion, how much of this is really about the fundraising and how much is about control?). In future when she's older you will not be able to stop her in this way so if you are wise you will think ahead now about how to manage things so you don't get into repeated battles with her and her dad. The poor child is stuck between two parents who are giving opposite messages. It's not her fault. The last thing you want to do is shame, humiliate or punish her. She has to want to do as she's asked because she loves and respects you and feels loved and respected in turn. That is where I would start. Have you found out why she didn't want to do the fundraising? Some of the activities sound fun and it's odd that she didn't want to join in. Does she really want to go on the trip? Can she think of some way she would prefer to raise money? Perhaps mention why the Brownies were asked to fundraise and explain the reasoning behind it. But then I'd leave it at that and let her enjoy her holiday.