ExH undermining me with Brownies and theres nothing I can do

[TheBrowniesFundraiserforHoliday]

DD is 9 and a Brownie.

Going on pack holiday at October Half Term for 5 nights (Friday to Thursday).

She was supposed to fundraise for it over the summer holidays, they literally needed to raise £20 each, the rest was being topped up by parents (and there are funds for those who may not be able to find the extra £30 to go)

She has refused to fundraise. A friend of mine asked her (with my supervision) to feed her cats twice a day and would pay her £5 she didn’t do it, so I did it. My parents offered for her to walk their dog while they were working and they’d give her £10. That’s £15 before she’s tried to do anything else.

DDs Sixer suggested their six get together in the summer and run a book stall at the local supermarket to raise funds, they had 140 books, they could have sold them for £1 each and raised the money easily. Her friends took part but she wouldn’t, I offered to stay and supervise and Brown Owl also did an hour with them and DD refused. They sold all 140 books and made £100, which is nearly all the money for all of the places in the 6.

Any suggestion to do it is met with “Well I want to go but won’t be making the money myself for it”. She’s been rude to me telling me I will give her the money and she will be going.

I said no, you won’t be going as you’ve not worked for it. There’s still time between now and the deadline to make the money though.

DD has spent the week at ExHs and come home today.

She’s just told me that not only is she going on pack holiday but dad is going to say she helped to weed the garden for it. She didn’t she’s boasted about not doing it.

The Friday they go falls on his weekend so I can’t even stop her, and because of the way holiday contact falls he’d have had her until the Wednesday anyway, so I’d be pulling her out for effectively 15 hours (handover is 6pm on the Wednesday and they get picked up by us 10am Thursday).

I don’t know how to go forward with this. Do I talk to Brown Owl? Or just leave it?

For context; if she’d raised say £10 or £15 and was very close I’d of course have given her the extra money, it’s the fact she’s done nothing and will still get to go.

I pay for Brownies, and its in the week which during Term Time ExH doesn’t see her in the week. He has her 1 night a month in Term Time and 50% in the school holidays.

I’d be torn on this one. I generally am a bit funny about kids fundraising as I think often it’s the parents subsidising anyway but I’d be cross she didn’t play her part in the book stall when her friends did and made a good go of it. I also think work ethic is important. She’s starting to get to an age where that will become just as important as natural ability for lots of things and I’d not like her gloating about getting away with not doing anything. I don’t think I’d cancel brownies or the trip but I’d want to try and think of an alternative way for her to redeem herself.

It's a shame she can't be told by Brown Owl that she can't go because she hasn't earned the money given to her by her dad.

Op will you be paying the extra or will he?

Has she said why she won’t do the things she’s had the opportunity to do?

Might it be because she knows her dad will sub her?

Don’t pay the extra £30, don’t get her anything she needs for it, and I would be threatening (and following through if needed) pulling her out of Brownies altogether. Explain to her dad it’s not the money it’s the attitude.

You have to remember she is only 9 if she was a teenager I would expect better. I think you are being unreasonable.

Do not pull her out of Brownies. With an idiot father, she needs all the positive, community minded influences she can get!

I'd be talking to her generally about the value of things and the value of what you do for each other. The value of what people put into society.

As a consequence, I'd be expecting her to earn the value of the fundraising back as household chores. If she still refuses, then the pack holiday is counted as one of her next birthday/ Christmas presents depending on which falls sooner.

Honestly I think I would pull her out of brownies because she's missing the whole point and your ex is encouraging it

The Brown Owl wouldn't have asked the Brownies to fund raise if she didn't think they were capable of doing it at that age .

I'm afraid I was also a lazy git when I was in the Brownies although I wasn't nasty or rude to my mother.

To get my sewing badge I had to make a stuffed toy and I could actually sew very well but kept putting it off until the last minute.

We had to go round two old dears house and present the toy in order to get the badge.

My mother hastily made a beautiful Siamese shaped stuffed toy and I presented it to the two old ladies as if I had made it.

They loved it and were very kind to mother and I and appeared to be sweet old ladies.

As we were leaving the twinkle in their eyes sharpened and they proceeded to tell me that because I was so proficient at sewing I was to come back and help a couple of girls who's sewing hadn't been good enough and I was to demonstrate how to do it.

Obviously they had cottoned on to my not having made it and my mother laughed all the way home.

I had to go back and spend an afternoon making a stuffed toy and helping the other two.

In your case I would not indulge your little madam when she returns from the holiday and set her some tasks that she must complete in order to earn future pocket money.

Agreed. I would pull her out now and she round not be going on the trip ( unless your ex cracks on and sorts everything out himself.

You can tell Brown Owl but don't take your power away. If it was my child I would either say she is not going on the trip because part of the trip was about helping others- you didn't do this. Or tell her you made a promise when you started Brownies that you would help others sadly you chose not to do this so I will not fund Brownies this term. If you decide that you want to fulfil your promise then the term after I will reinstate you.

I like this approach. If he’s so keen to help, then he can do it all!

Also agree with PP suggesting take her out when the term ends if there’s no change in attitude. What a shame to feel this way at 9!

I would make it a priority to get very curious with your reluctant brownie about what’s going on?

is she embarrassed about something? Does she feel awkward about money in general?

does she get pocket money that she could have saved? Are there expectations about how she earns + spends money otherwise?

Suspect it’s really hard to set boundaries about treats + material stuff when she spends half the hols with Disney dad.

maybe there need to be some more conditions attached to regular pocket money so she gets used to ‘earning’ a bit?

As you are the resident parent, if you were to speak to Brown Owl and say that you don't give your consent for her to go, would that be an end to it?

I agreed I think you speak to the leader and get them on board with teaching the lesson here.

I’d be pulling mine out of brownies immediately. She doesn’t deserve a place within the organisation of this is what she’ll be like every time she has to do something.

I would stop paying. Stop taking her and explain. It’s because of her attitude towards team spirit etc and that she’s only let herself down by not contributing to the team fundraising etc.

id explain that the brownie values don’t align with hers and that you will look at other out of school activities in the future.

I’ve volunteered since I was 13 and took my kids with me to various volunteer events as they grew up where they helped out. It’s part of our family - we all pull our weight and contribute in and out of the family home/unit or there are pre-agreed ‘punishments’ if we don’t. Sounds like she needs to have more cause and effect type of boundaries put in place.

Speak to Brown Owl about your concerns. Maybe BO can make it the subject of a 'talk' to the girls sometime and I bet she's not the only one who's 'cheated'. I wonder if you pull her out of Brownies whether your DD would refuse to go back as it seems to me she's intent on undermining you and is in cahoots with her dad. Is there some other way she can be made to see the value of working for things, like earning pocket money through chores at home?

I think this is good advice. I would also probably tell the brownie leader she didn’t do any fundraising and maybe she could do some chores or something during the trip to make up some of her lack lustre effort. Perhaps it would be a good lesson for her to learn that if no one lies for her, then her lies and attitude will be revealed and people will judge accordingly. They are meant to be a group and collaborate on tasks - not only will she not pull her weight but she’s very happy to hide behind lies. I’d explain that to the leader and ask her to make some sort of lesson on the trip for her. If she tells her Dad that she was made to clean the dishes or something as she didn’t do any fundraising, he can raise it with the leader and maybe she can explain the brownie code to him!!!! He sounds like he never learnt it either!!

Brown Owl here!

Firstly, it isnt just a case of signing a form on drop off. There is information we need in advance including two separate emergency contact information and a health form, and Brown Owl would take a very dim view if he just rocked up without this. So you both do need to be on the same page about that. Agree with pp that if he wants her to go, he needs to sort all the paperwork and payments on time. (Sidenote - parents who are disorganised with admin for trips and camps are the bane of all our lives).

Secondly, i would definitely talk to Brown Owl about the situation. Your DD is hardly keeping her promise and brownie law here. If you came to speak to me about it, we would run a few very targeted activities between now and camp with the aim of nipping this sort of behaviour in the bud. Theres a few in the programme that I can immediately think of that might prick your DD's conscience!

Then as mum, i would be tempted to give her an ultimatum. Eg. See how the first few weeks back at brownies go, backed up by Brown Owl's activities and whether there is a change in attitude. If not, then pull out. But it gives her a chance to get her act together when back in the routine of you and school etc.

On camp, we do cooking duty (ie helping in the kitchen with prep), orderly duty (laying the table, clearing plates etc) and hygiene duty (cleaning the bathrooms). Everyone does each duty at least once. She won't get away with a lazy time on camp, but its a shame she's not going into it in the spirit it was intended.

Agree with this.

I'd also stop backing her dad up when she's rude to him and his family. Not in a bolshy way - I'd just say that it's his family and his time, and his problem to solve.

That depends on the child when I went Brownies in the old days I was never forced to do fundraising. Brownies encourage their children to take part but you can't force a child if they don't want to. The only time I took part in any Brownie or Guide community thing was when it involved the church. I went camping with the guides once. All Brown Owl will do is encourage her girls to take part with parental support but it's not always possible.

I also like the advice from Brown Owls on here.

I’d start by texting ex and saying “dd says that you’re organising and paying for everything for brownie camp. Is that right?”

If he says yes I’d forward him everything that comes in about it and not get involved, leaving him to pay parental contributions, buy stuff etc. If he says no I’d ask him to stop getting involved then and I’d clarify to dd that she still needs to earn the money.

I wouldn’t withdraw dd from brownies - I think that this is a problem of ex’s making and not hers although she has been very rude. I would tell brown owl what has happened, give brown owl dads phone number, and leave the decision to her.

what a chancer!
i would tell her i am disappointed