ExH undermining me with Brownies and theres nothing I can do

[TheBrowniesFundraiserforHoliday]

DD is 9 and a Brownie.

Going on pack holiday at October Half Term for 5 nights (Friday to Thursday).

She was supposed to fundraise for it over the summer holidays, they literally needed to raise £20 each, the rest was being topped up by parents (and there are funds for those who may not be able to find the extra £30 to go)

She has refused to fundraise. A friend of mine asked her (with my supervision) to feed her cats twice a day and would pay her £5 she didn’t do it, so I did it. My parents offered for her to walk their dog while they were working and they’d give her £10. That’s £15 before she’s tried to do anything else.

DDs Sixer suggested their six get together in the summer and run a book stall at the local supermarket to raise funds, they had 140 books, they could have sold them for £1 each and raised the money easily. Her friends took part but she wouldn’t, I offered to stay and supervise and Brown Owl also did an hour with them and DD refused. They sold all 140 books and made £100, which is nearly all the money for all of the places in the 6.

Any suggestion to do it is met with “Well I want to go but won’t be making the money myself for it”. She’s been rude to me telling me I will give her the money and she will be going.

I said no, you won’t be going as you’ve not worked for it. There’s still time between now and the deadline to make the money though.

DD has spent the week at ExHs and come home today.

She’s just told me that not only is she going on pack holiday but dad is going to say she helped to weed the garden for it. She didn’t she’s boasted about not doing it.

The Friday they go falls on his weekend so I can’t even stop her, and because of the way holiday contact falls he’d have had her until the Wednesday anyway, so I’d be pulling her out for effectively 15 hours (handover is 6pm on the Wednesday and they get picked up by us 10am Thursday).

I don’t know how to go forward with this. Do I talk to Brown Owl? Or just leave it?

For context; if she’d raised say £10 or £15 and was very close I’d of course have given her the extra money, it’s the fact she’s done nothing and will still get to go.

I pay for Brownies, and its in the week which during Term Time ExH doesn’t see her in the week. He has her 1 night a month in Term Time and 50% in the school holidays.

Totally this. Removing her from brownies is a total over reaction. Think long term instead.

What does she say are the reasons why she wouldn't want to fundraise? I'd think a book sale with friends would be a fun activity. I'd say she owes £20 of fundraising jobs for brownies. So you will be docking her the equivalent sessions (eg paying for 15 out of 20). I'd also sit down and explain the reasons why you wanted her to join in eg be the type of person who joins in and helps others instead of selfish and ask her what kind of person she wants to grow up into and how she thinks her behaviour will contribute to that. Also telling her you will tell brown owl might help, she might be OK with you knowing how she behaves but doubt she will want the rest of them knowing

What would your DD think if brown owl wanted her to give a talk to the rest of the brownies about what she did ... Or laid it on thick about how proud she is of DD earning the money and what a fantastic example she is showing for camp?
Sneaky. I like it!

I think you need to talk your exh and ask him what kind of person he wants her to ge in the future?

If she didn’t want to do the book sale with her friends for a few hours, why would she want to go away with them?

Surely the 'don't do the work = don't get' message is essential here, especially as she is crowing about getting away with not doing the work.

I'd be making damn sure she didn't go if the required work didn't get done.

The trouble is the bad attitude clearly comes from dad as he encourages it. I doubt she fully understands the issue it if he finds it funny. I understand pulling her out of Brownies as a consequence, but it seems a bit counterproductive as surely you want her spending more time around people who demonstrate the good behaviours and morals that her dad doesn't.

Probably easier said than done, but i'd have a patient but firm chat with her about how if dad says she's gets to go then of course she gets to go because it's his weekend. However, why does she think Brownies and mum wanted her to actually work for the money? Can she understand that sometimes it's actually good for us to have to work hard for something we want. If not, does she think dad will always just pay for things? What about when shes older, would she like an interesting job, a house etc, because she'll need to work hard for that and she will find it very tricky if she doesnt practice now. I would be careful about just punishing something that is clearly due to dad's attitude.

I'd let Brown Owl know... they are wise (old?) Owls who usually have a trick or two up their sleeves for kids like yours.

If nothing else I'd be giving her the heads up incase your daughter decides to brag to the others about how she didn't raise the money- that might cause some issues for some.

I would also refuse to pay for the rest of the trip as she hasn't earned her place - dad can pick it all up if she wishes but having been blatant enough to tell you that you WILL pay for her anyway I certainly would not be. (And Brown Owl will need to know not to pay for her out of hardship funds!)

The trouble is the bad attitude clearly comes from dad as he encourages it. I doubt she fully understands the issue it if he finds it funny. I understand pulling her out of Brownies as a consequence, but it seems a bit counterproductive as surely you want her spending moretime around people who demonstrate the good behaviours and morals that her dad doesn't.

This.
I wouldn't pull her out of Brownies.
I would have a chat with her about how disappointed I was and leave it at that.

It will probably be when she is a lot older that she will understand, but she is likely to get there quicker if she does go to things like Brownies where they are trying to teach her different values from those of your ex.

Very sensible. Your ex sounds like an absolute prat.

Stop backing him up op. He is consciously billing you as The Baddie...

In addition to not pulling her out, don't spoil the experience of the pack holiday.
Will this be the first time she has been away from home like this? - don't tarnish it.

I think you CAN stop her going!!

Who signed her up to Brownies? If you signed her up and you’re the parental contact, did you also provide dads details? Honestly I’m sure they would have to have signed consent forms from you if you’re the main contact. Even though dad has parental consent and can legally give consent for things, I’m not convinced they will let her go without you signing a consent form. So… don’t!

Did you actually read why she is pulling her daughter out ? Do you think lying is okay?Do you think a child who can't be bothered to fulfill the conditions of attending the event should still be allowed to go when others have worked hard to raise their funds to go ?

Wearing my Guiding hat, you could talk to her about the promise that she made - To be true to
myself and develop my beliefs (what beliefs has she developed?) To serve my community (which fundraising activities would have done) To help other people (ditto).
Also the general principle that you work for things you want (which she had ample opportunity to do).
However, I wonder whether her Dad wants her to go on pack holiday so that he doesn’t have to actually have her for ”his” time!

IMO the OP hasn’t tarnished the pack holiday, the OP’s daughter has by lying and cheating.
Agree that pulling her out of Brownies is too extreme, but making her earn her weekly session to the tune of £20 is a good idea.

She's nine years' old! She's allowed to make a mistake and learn.
OP doesn't need to pull her out. Just absent herself from the process and say that Disney Dad is in charge now.

Just tell dd that she won’t be going back to Brownies and pack holiday as she has broken the promise. She certainly hasn’t shown that she’s a team player. Your ex is a prize twat.

@BabyofMine They don't have ExHs details, they have mine only. I get all the emailed consent forms etc. but ExH has PR and I'm told he can just sign the form there and then when he drops her off due to that.

I would tell her that I will pull her out of brownies this term so she learns her lesson. I know part of sending her there is for you to have 'me time' but you will have to bear it for the term
So automatically she won't be able to go for the residential. Unless she corrects the errors of ways before the deadline. Kids need to understand consequences.

If for any reason you don't do that, I would not get the things required for the residential and let her father deal with it all. But the first option would be what I will aim for.

Agree with this 100%

I was a Brownie Leader for a while. It can certainly be easier for a leader to mention things in passing to a girl, or do a 'we will really enjoy it as we've earnt it' type speech to all - then the parents! As part of the latter, I'd be asking if any girls wanted to share what they did, and praising hard work and things done for others.... I'd be interested to see what your child would say in that context (outright lying v shame etc)!

Agree Brownies can be a really good influence, although normally being naughty should lead to consequences ie being pulled out, so that's a tricky one. You could keep her out for x weeks, explaining why? - especially if it's just pre or after the pack holiday when they're all excited re it...

I teach 9 year olds and have teenage DDs - can't believe all these posters going "aw, but she's only 9, don't spoil the holiday for her".

9 is well old enough to know better. Its also old enough for some kids to be quite manipulative. She's playing OP off against her dad and enjoying it. She thinks she's the boss of her mum. She's been given loads of chances to make a token effort at earning a small amount towards the holiday and not only did she refuse all the opportunities but she's being smug that Dad will pay and Mum will "lose" the behaviour battle.

At this rate she's going to be a nightmare at 12/13 which is only a few years away. Dad will keep giving her whatever she wants and she'll continue to ignore any boundaries OP tries to enforce.

In OP's place I would withdraw her from Brownies altogether. Yes, she will miss out on stuff she enjoys but tough, it's a consequence of her behaviour. She'll go running to her dad to complain but he hasn't organised/paid for/facilitated Brownie membership in the past and I bet he can't be arsed to take responsibility for doing so if OP pulls her out.

DD will moan and sulk for a while but maybe next time OP says, "I need you to do this or x consequence will happen", DD will remember that mum actually follows through on consequences and doesn't just make empty threats.

I would be very tempted to talk to Brown Owl about this, she should know that your daughter is not being a good Brownie in this instance. The other children have worked hard after all. I don’t blame your daughter really though- her dad is not only giving her a way out but actively encouraging her to be lazy/selfish/lie. It’s awful when people encourage their children to be this way. I had similar issues with my ex and our daughter. My daughter has grown up to see what a loser her father is but she had to figure that out for herself.

I’d definitely be leaving your ex to pack and prepare for her trip away all by himself. I’d have nothing more to do with it.

I'd speak to the Brown Owl about it. IIRC brownies make a vow to tell the truth- or has that gone? I would mak sure she did not go on the trip, just for the dishonesty alone. She deserves to lose out as a punishemnet, of course, but also needs to be taught a lesson- this is not cruel, it is for her own good. Any kid growing up thinking dishonesty and deceit gets you what you want is headed for big trouble. It's a parent's duty to do their best to ensure no child gets any benefit from a lie or a piece of deceit like this.