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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Friend's dad convicted paedophile. Wwyd?

163 replies

Namechangerererererer · 14/08/2023 18:22

Dc started school last year, got chatting to one of the other mums in the playground as our kids seem to get on well. She seems quite open and is has been telling me about her dad who is dying of cancer etc. I've tried to be supportive as much as an acquaintance would be.

Before we broke up for the holidays we agreed to meet up a few times so the kids could see each other. Met up last week, lovely few hours.

While we were chatting last week I mentioned dhs job, he's a pc. Didn't think anything of it tbh.

Then today she messaged asking if we want to go round to hers later in the week to play. I agreed and then she messaged a few hours later asking if she could speak to my dh. This happens now and again where people just want some police advice without ringing the police.

So she basically disclosed she was being harassed on social media by a now ex friend who had found out her dad is a convicted paedophile. He was apparently convicted for downloading images a few years ago and was given a suspended sentence.

Apparently he's not allowed unsupervised contact with her dc, dc is not allowed to stay over unless there's a lock on the door (!!) That sounds bizarre to me tbh. Her dad doesn't live with them and is unlikely to last til the end of the month.

She said she'd understand if we didn't want our dc to play together. I just don't know how to feel. Obviously it's not her crime, and her dc is totally innocent in this but there's something nagging at me that makes me very uncomfortable. I think it's the fact that despite the conviction she's obviously still supports him with his illness. If it was a family member of mine, they'd be dead to me.

Iabu- not her crime so shouldn't be punished

Ianbu- her judgements off and I'd be uncomfortable too

Also, bugger odd daily mail journalists.

OP posts:
GingerIsBest · 15/08/2023 14:07

AlexandriasWindmill · 15/08/2023 13:05

It's a straw man to say we need to be compassionate to the family members of criminals. No-one is suggesting a lack of compassion. Posters are discussing a lack of physical access.
Yy family members are conflicted. Yy there are lots of emotions. But DCs rely on adults to keep them safe; and to prioritise their safety and vulnerability over putting them in contact with adults who have abused DCs.
No-one who has family members affected by this (and I do - both as victims and as convicted paedophiles) would be making excuses for abusers and letting them have access to their DCs - not even supervised visits. The posters white knighting for paedos need to take a long hard look at themselves. In fact I don't know why MN has even let this thread stand.

Quite a few comments have told OP to cut all ties with this woman because she has not cut all ties with her father and therefore she is "condoning" his behaviour.

That is different to saying you would not want your child to go to her father's house.

drpet49 · 15/08/2023 14:08

Hummingbird89 · 15/08/2023 06:52

People saying the OP is shunning this woman for her father’s crimes- I wouldn’t be shunning her for her father’s crimes, but for her own reaction to them. If she had a dad who was a paedophile but had zero contact with him and had cut him off, I wouldn’t even consider ending the friendship.

Exactly this.

Original poster
Namechangerererererer · 15/08/2023 15:21

I did message her back to say thanks for being upfront. Now the initial what the fuck feeling has worn off I will still go and see her. Her father doesn't live with her, and is bedridden at his home so there's no risk there.

She replied saying how horrible it was for her and her mum to deal with. Her mum didn't have funds to split so I think it's quite complicated.

I wouldn't leave my kids alone anyway on a play date because of things like this. You never know who might pop in for a cup of tea as a pp said.

OP posts:
x2boys · 15/08/2023 15:21

If I found out my supposed friend had started a,thread on mums net about me posting very specific details about my situation the friend would nt have decide wether to cut all.contact with me I would be cutting all.contact with them

Original poster
Namechangerererererer · 15/08/2023 15:24

@x2boys hence the name change. There are no identifiable details. She could recognise herself but actually the thread is mostly supportive of her so it's not a bad thing to read. I've also said how horrendous I find it to her via whatsapp so there's nothing coming as a surprise.

I wanted anonymous opinions on a tricky situation which isn't unreasonable.

OP posts:
Atethehalloweenchocs · 15/08/2023 19:32

Yes, I do know that I would not want to be in contact with someone who condoned child abuse. Because that is what it is, condoning it.

How ridiculous. There is a big difference between having contact with someone and excusing what they have done. And in fact, black and white thinking that makes these situations worse - because people cant accept that they can still love and care about someone but hate/condemn/disagree with their actions, people minimize and dismiss wrongdoing so they can keep relationships going. Better to be realistic and honest, like this poor woman has been. As for her children having contact with him, there is no evidence of that here. And OP, never know who may pop round? Come on. You could say that about literally anyone.

Doyouknowtheway · 15/08/2023 20:34

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

avemariiiaa · 15/08/2023 21:01

Your kids will never be in the presence of your friends dad, and you don't have to leave them in the care of your friend if without you being there ifit makes you uncomfortable.
But I wouldn't end a friendship over it, I would just be way more cautious overall with that particular friend.

Atethehalloweenchocs · 15/08/2023 21:06

But we dont know that the OPs friend was minimizing what her father did @Doyouknowtheway . I agree that how people talk about what their relative did is really important. But it is not clear from the post what her attitude is. Having worked in locked units, I can vouch that relatives dont always minimize what their family member has done.

Doyouknowtheway · 15/08/2023 21:26

@Atethehalloweenchocs well you'd have more experience than me.
But her having trouble online about her father tells me she's invested enough for people to have an issue with it.
Is a locked unit a place that families visit offenders?
I have read before that families sticking by offenders is supposed to help in rehabilitation but I don't believe certain people can change.

Giantpig · 15/08/2023 21:38

Atethehalloweenchocs · 15/08/2023 19:32

Yes, I do know that I would not want to be in contact with someone who condoned child abuse. Because that is what it is, condoning it.

How ridiculous. There is a big difference between having contact with someone and excusing what they have done. And in fact, black and white thinking that makes these situations worse - because people cant accept that they can still love and care about someone but hate/condemn/disagree with their actions, people minimize and dismiss wrongdoing so they can keep relationships going. Better to be realistic and honest, like this poor woman has been. As for her children having contact with him, there is no evidence of that here. And OP, never know who may pop round? Come on. You could say that about literally anyone.

Why does she want to have contact with him though? Who knowingly enjoys the company of paedophiles? It really isn’t difficult to cut contact with people, there is no need for her to see him or let him see her children (which presumably she does because otherwise she wouldn’t have said he can only see them when he is supervised, she would have said‘obviously I never let my children near him’)

Atethehalloweenchocs · 15/08/2023 21:49

Not sure I agree about the online abuse - I have an unusual surname and a druggie brother. Would not be hard to link us online and I regularly meet people who ask me or tell me about him. In real life I have not seen him for years because of his behaviour.

I did family therapy with people with mental health problems who had often committed crimes (including sexual abuse, drug crimes, murder - the worst was a teenage girl who had killed her baby). This was in another country. The research does show it helps to have family involvement and that the higher the isolation of the offender, the more likely they are to re-offend. You can never demand family stay involved of course, and sometime they had to cut off for safety and for their own mental health. I was always so moved by the people who were staying in touch while treading that line between holding their loved one to account and being supportive of them. It is a really hard thing to do because we tend to only want to feel one thing at a time. And I got to see how much family can suffer because of what someone else did - the horror of loving someone who does something so heinous, the anger, the shame of being related to this person, the shunning and abuse they can receive - people being driven out of their house or sacked. Even when it was family members who reported to the police or helped the police with their investigations. The MH implications for those innocent people can go through generations.

But you are right, there are a lot of offenders who will not change and the difficulty is figuring out which ones they are. Those are the ones who family may have to step away from. For what it is worth, as several people have said upthread, there does seem to be a difference in primary motivation. Some people are motivated by sexual sadism (in which case children are seen as ideal victims), some by sexual attraction to children (for which, incidentally, there is a real lack of support for those who are horrified by their attraction and want to resist) and some because their porn use is pushing them to break more and more boundaries to get their thrill. Why people access these images makes a big difference to how likely they are to change in future. And for me, that would make a difference to whether I could stay involved.

Atethehalloweenchocs · 15/08/2023 21:52

Why does she want to have contact with him though? Who knowingly enjoys the company of paedophiles?

There are a lot of people who have contact with relatives through a feeling of duty or because there is no one else to help them who dont enjoy it.

It really isn’t difficult to cut contact with people, there is no need for her to see him or let him see her children (which presumably she does because otherwise she wouldn’t have said he can only see them when he is supervised, she would have said‘obviously I never let my children near him’)*

Thats a big presumption. It is highly likely she has been told that IF he was to have contact these things would have to be in place. They are pretty standard. We have no idea if there actually is contact.

Cattenberg · 15/08/2023 21:53

Alicethecamelhasa · 14/08/2023 18:55

I’d like those who say that a relative would be dead to them if they got convicted of downloading indecent images of children to come back when they are in that situation. Because, honestly, I would have said that before it happened to me. When it’s someone you have loved your entire life then it might be different.

I know an elderly couple whose adult son was convicted of this crime. They still have a relationship with him. This might be because a) their only other child died very young and b) if they cut off their son, they would likely lose contact with their grandchildren who are clearly the light of their lives.

In theory these scenarios might look black-and-white, but in real life, things often aren’t that simple.

Atethehalloweenchocs · 15/08/2023 21:54

And, by the way @Giantpig , the research shows that 75% of people who initiate a family estrangement regret it. While it is important to do at times, it is never easy and there are huge MH implications.

Hummingbird89 · 15/08/2023 22:16

@Cattenberg what crime though? We’re not talking about council tax dodging here, he’s a convicted paedo.
I am honestly so, so shocked at the responses in this thread. Gobsmacked.

Giantpig · 15/08/2023 22:29

Atethehalloweenchocs · 15/08/2023 21:52

Why does she want to have contact with him though? Who knowingly enjoys the company of paedophiles?

There are a lot of people who have contact with relatives through a feeling of duty or because there is no one else to help them who dont enjoy it.

It really isn’t difficult to cut contact with people, there is no need for her to see him or let him see her children (which presumably she does because otherwise she wouldn’t have said he can only see them when he is supervised, she would have said‘obviously I never let my children near him’)*

Thats a big presumption. It is highly likely she has been told that IF he was to have contact these things would have to be in place. They are pretty standard. We have no idea if there actually is contact.

No one has a duty to paedophiles. If abusers end up without anyone to care for them in illness/ old age that’s their own doing.

If she doesn’t let her kids see him, and she is at pains to let people know she doesn’t condone his crime and isn’t a risk to their children, do you really think she would have talked about the conditions for her child staying over rather than just saying he doesn’t see them? Obviously we don’t know for sure, we don’t know anything about it- but if I was trying to convince someone of this I wouldn’t be even mentioning my child in the same sentence as sleeping over at his house.

Giantpig · 15/08/2023 22:36

Atethehalloweenchocs · 15/08/2023 21:54

And, by the way @Giantpig , the research shows that 75% of people who initiate a family estrangement regret it. While it is important to do at times, it is never easy and there are huge MH implications.

What research?

HopefulSeller · 15/08/2023 22:41

I think it helps to separate out the issues.

It isn’t her crime - but we don’t really know how much she and her mum support her Dad, but that she hasn’t cut off and does on some level emotionally support him.

Your DC aren’t in danger and we presume she hasn’t put her own kids in danger.

She was open and honest, but in a way that was about getting help for herself first (contacting your DH and asking for his help).

So for me this would put me off my friend. I think because she involved you in expressing sympathy for her with her Dad being ill, without knowing. She has made the decision to still give him emotional support. And because there is a certain amount of drama. I don’t think I would want to be near that drama, or support someone supporting their father who had done this. It’s their decision of course, but I think it would be hard to be someone’s friend and there is also the whole back story which is quite a heavy load for a friendship.

Doggyhelp · 15/08/2023 23:00

I’m quite a sceptical person.

I would want to know exactly what his crime was to make sure my friend wasn’t watering it down to make it more “palatable”.

I would want to know who is harassing her and why. Is it a person linked to the abuse/images?

I would want to know who decided a locked door was an acceptable safeguard from a convicted criminal.

Knowing the answer to the above would inform my view. I don’t hold a relative accountable for a crime but I do have a view if they facilitate lies and minimising.

On a personal note I would be angry that id been told all about the cancer etc and probably emotionally invested a lot in being there for a friend in need. If I then found out the person I felt sad for was nothing but a dirty nonce I would feel deceived. But that’s just my personal response based upon a few lives experiences.

Cattenberg · 15/08/2023 23:11

Hummingbird89 · 15/08/2023 22:16

@Cattenberg what crime though? We’re not talking about council tax dodging here, he’s a convicted paedo.
I am honestly so, so shocked at the responses in this thread. Gobsmacked.

@Hummingbird89 , so if you were in the same situation as the couple I mentioned, you’d cut off your son, even if it meant not seeing your grandchildren again? Their mother wouldn’t facilitate contact with her ex’s family.

Sorry to detail the thread slightly. But I hope it doesn’t descend into the typical Mumsnet argument of, “I hate paedophiles more than you”, “no, you don’t, I hate them more than you”, because I don’t think that’s very helpful.

Hummingbird89 · 15/08/2023 23:32

@Cattenberg it depends on the crime commuted. Honestly, a crime as heinous as child sex abuse, yes I think I would.
Shoplifting/tax evasion/traffic offences, no I wouldn’t. There’s massive grey areas in between and it would take a huge amount for me to cut off my son but honestly if he was a paedophile, yes I believe I would.

Giantpig · 15/08/2023 23:37

@Cattenberg cutting of an abusive parent isn’t the same as cutting off a child, it’s a different relationship.

For one thing many abusive people were abused as children (I don’t mean that most/all survivors become abusers, the vast majority don’t- but when you investigate the background of abusers, being victims is often a feature). So maybe they feel guilty about something. Maybe they condone his crimes. Or maybe they think they can better keep their grandchildren safe if they watch him with them since they aren’t able to stop his contact with them.

Whatever their deal is it doesn’t mean the op should be friends with someone she isn’t sure about!

Greenwitchhorse · 16/08/2023 01:12

I could never stand by a paedophile, relative or not.

I would cut them out of my life the minute I hear about what they did. They are the worst and I don't believe they can ever change.

So I would question her judgement and I would not want to be around her.

Atethehalloweenchocs · 16/08/2023 22:40

do you really think she would have talked about the conditions for her child staying over rather than just saying he doesn’t see them? Obviously we don’t know for sure,

No, we dont know. And yes, I think she may have talked about that to reassure someone that things were safe.

As for the research, look up effects on mental health of family estrangement. Easy to access online.