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AIBU?

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Original poster

Gross negligence? Knowingly placing an individual with TB on a barge intended for 500?

248 replies

Nevermay · 14/08/2023 00:01

or sending anyone onto the barge at all, when it was known the water supply was contaminated with legionnaires disease?

Gross negligence? Reckless endangerment?

Any individual who contributed to the situation, placing asylum seekers on the barge while knowing either that one had TB, or that the water supply was unsafe needs to be taken to court and charged, who ever they are.

surely?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
bakebeans · 16/08/2023 21:16

Unfortunately TB is on the rise due to immigration. No longer vaccinated here as not priority according to our UK government. I'm a nurse and I've seen 2 cases already this month of August who despite being told to isolate whilst receiving treatment have continued to go about their day

AutumnCrow · 16/08/2023 21:19

bakebeans · 16/08/2023 21:16

Unfortunately TB is on the rise due to immigration. No longer vaccinated here as not priority according to our UK government. I'm a nurse and I've seen 2 cases already this month of August who despite being told to isolate whilst receiving treatment have continued to go about their day

Goodness. Which strain is that?

Original poster
Nevermay · 16/08/2023 21:28

Coriolise · 15/08/2023 19:45

Oh wah
I was on a plane with a passenger that had TB. Shit happens. You get exposed to sick people up until they are tagged and removed. All of us on the plane with this TB person had to be given super strength antibiotics. Job done.

Legionnaires disease comes from water stagnating in water pipes and systems and can happen anywhere. I had it in a rental property that I moved into with a 2yo and a 4yo big whoop. All that happened what the landlord had plumbers come dump some chemicals to flush through the system to clean it out.

It’s not ideal but the idea that a refugee has TB or a barge that hasn’t housed people might have a bit of legionnaires in the pipes is not a big deal or uncommon. Let’s unscrew from the ceiling and just deal with it.

You will notice that once a TB sufferer is identified, the proper procedure is to trace all contacts for testing/treatment

The proper procedure is NOT to place said sufferer on hideously over crowded barge with 499 other vulnerable people.

a bit of legionnaires in the pipes is not a big deal

SERIOUSLY! Legionnaires is deadly, you get that right. It kills at least 10% of everyone infected.

Yes, these disease occur, as you say, but they are deadly, and they are dealt with accordingly, with isolation, tracking, treatment, testing, control, as you have outlined.

What does not happen is deliberately introducing them to hideously overcrowded refugee populations, which appears to be what has happened here.

If, on your plane, the rather than being accidently exposed, the individual was identified as contagious with TB, THEN brought onto your plane and sat next to you, that would be different, wouldn't it.

If in your house, legionnaire's was discovered, then you and your family were forcibly moved in without any steps taken to eradicate it, that would be different, wouldn't it.

You have exactly proved my point. These are deadly diseases. There are appropriate reactions to them, as you have described. There are criminally irresponsible reactions to them, which is what has happened in the case of this barge.

OP posts:
Original poster
Nevermay · 16/08/2023 21:30

bakebeans · 16/08/2023 21:16

Unfortunately TB is on the rise due to immigration. No longer vaccinated here as not priority according to our UK government. I'm a nurse and I've seen 2 cases already this month of August who despite being told to isolate whilst receiving treatment have continued to go about their day

Not due to immigration, the deadly antibiotic resistant strains have arisen in Europe. And yes, we do routinely immunise against TB in the UK, and have for many years now.

OP posts:
Clavinova · 16/08/2023 21:39

Nevermay
You will notice that once a TB sufferer is identified, the proper procedure is to trace all contacts for testing/treatment

The individual in your op has latent TB not active TB.

Clavinova · 16/08/2023 21:43

What does not happen is deliberately introducing them to hideously overcrowded refugee populations, which appears to be what has happened here

The barge wasn't hideously overcrowded with only 39 asylum seekers on board.

Clavinova · 16/08/2023 21:47

The man with latent TB wasn't even on the barge - he had received a Home Office letter informing him that he was due to be moved there at some point.

Jennygosoftly · 17/08/2023 04:54

Nevermay · 14/08/2023 00:01

or sending anyone onto the barge at all, when it was known the water supply was contaminated with legionnaires disease?

Gross negligence? Reckless endangerment?

Any individual who contributed to the situation, placing asylum seekers on the barge while knowing either that one had TB, or that the water supply was unsafe needs to be taken to court and charged, who ever they are.

surely?

Are you American?

I ask because "reckless endangerment" is an American Law Term and in UK "Gross Negligence" is open to interpretation.

https://www.ashurst.com/en/insights/what-does-gross-negligence-really-mean/

jgw1 · 17/08/2023 07:55

Clavinova · 16/08/2023 17:25

JanieEyre
One major problem with your proposal is that it breaches treaty obligations.

In what way?

Any danger of addressing that question? (to quote you).

Given your ability to find links to share with us I am really very surprised you have not managed to find one that explains the law on asylum seekers, very strange.

SerendipityJane · 17/08/2023 08:04

jgw1 · 17/08/2023 07:55

Given your ability to find links to share with us I am really very surprised you have not managed to find one that explains the law on asylum seekers, very strange.

Show quote history

Clav isn't about adding to the sum of debate, but dropping in "whatabout" stories to act as the sand in the ice cream, so to speak. Rather than push the vehicle of debate forwards, they are happy to sit inside and point out we should be going a different way.

Two similes from ChatGPT and I haven't even signed in yet.

Original poster
Nevermay · 17/08/2023 09:55

Jennygosoftly · 17/08/2023 04:54

Are you American?

I ask because "reckless endangerment" is an American Law Term and in UK "Gross Negligence" is open to interpretation.

https://www.ashurst.com/en/insights/what-does-gross-negligence-really-mean/

Show quote history

ok, whatever, it is covered by "Acts causing or tending to cause danger to life or bodily harm" commonly called reckless endangerment - what is the point of quibbling?

Do you think deliberately placing vulnerable individuals in the way or potentially lethal harm is something we accept from our politicians and managers? Or something we expect to lead to police investigations, charges and hopefully convictions?

Offences Against the Person Act 1861

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1861/100/crossheading/acts-causing-or-tending-to-cause-danger-to-life-or-bodily-harm/enacted

OP posts:
Jennygosoftly · 17/08/2023 11:51

"deliberately" ???!

whatever, goof luck with proving that

Original poster
Nevermay · 17/08/2023 14:56

Jennygosoftly · 17/08/2023 11:51

"deliberately" ???!

whatever, goof luck with proving that

It was known he had infectious TB

It was known the water supply was contaminated

So it was criminal negligence OR deliberate

There needs to be a full police investigation - these things cannot be allowed to pass unpunished.

Who knew, what, when and what did they do about it?

Somebody (s) need to be held fully accountable

OP posts:
Jennygosoftly · 17/08/2023 15:02

@Nevermay "Somebody (s) need to be held fully accountable"

Why?

No-one died, no-one was injured.

You try claiming damages when you aren't injured.

And who will be sued? The clerk who forgot to send an e-mail?

This is a ridiculous argument.

Original poster
Nevermay · 17/08/2023 15:06

Jennygosoftly · 17/08/2023 15:02

@Nevermay "Somebody (s) need to be held fully accountable"

Why?

No-one died, no-one was injured.

You try claiming damages when you aren't injured.

And who will be sued? The clerk who forgot to send an e-mail?

This is a ridiculous argument.

Lives were put at risk.

Possibly deliberately, and possibly by a politician.

I am talking about criminal charges, not suing for damages

OP posts:
Jennygosoftly · 17/08/2023 15:24

It's still a ridiculous argument.

IMO you need to give your head a wobble,

Original poster
Nevermay · 17/08/2023 15:31

Jennygosoftly · 17/08/2023 15:24

It's still a ridiculous argument.

IMO you need to give your head a wobble,

Why do you think that sort of behaviour is OK. How would you feel about your children being sent into a school with a deadly contamination in the water supply, or for an individual with TB to be told to go and sit in their classroom with them for a couple of months.

I suspect you would want the people who were responsible to be hung drawn and quartered

OP posts:
Boomboom22 · 17/08/2023 17:24

OK you are exaggerating a bit too much. No lives were put at risk from tb as the persons gp was the only one who knew and it is latent and the person never went on the barge.

They were evacuated within hours and there have been no cases of legionnaires.

If the law you think exists does, how it it that landlords can rent homes with black mould and council houses be in such disrepair with electrics etc?

And finally we stopped routinely vaccinating for tb in the UK outside of London over 20 years ago. Very few people get the tcb thing.

Original poster
Nevermay · 17/08/2023 17:26

Boomboom22 · 17/08/2023 17:24

OK you are exaggerating a bit too much. No lives were put at risk from tb as the persons gp was the only one who knew and it is latent and the person never went on the barge.

They were evacuated within hours and there have been no cases of legionnaires.

If the law you think exists does, how it it that landlords can rent homes with black mould and council houses be in such disrepair with electrics etc?

And finally we stopped routinely vaccinating for tb in the UK outside of London over 20 years ago. Very few people get the tcb thing.

lives were put at risk, asylum seekers were moved onto a barge known to have a watersupply contaminated with a lethal pathogen, their lives were put at risk. As to the individual with TB, the story about whether he is infectious or not has changed, so needs a proper investigation to establish the facts, and I think the police should be investigating this, not the media.

OP posts:
Boomboom22 · 17/08/2023 17:28

But even if he was infectious he got a letter and showed it to his gp, he never set foot on the barge.

bakebeans · 17/08/2023 21:35

Nevermay · 16/08/2023 21:30

Not due to immigration, the deadly antibiotic resistant strains have arisen in Europe. And yes, we do routinely immunise against TB in the UK, and have for many years now.

Show quote history

So can you advise where in the Uk we routinely vaccinate? Normally this is a national thing?
As a child I recall we were all vaccinated a school? That hast happened. My children haven't been routinely vaccinated?
There is currently no national vaccine programme in place for Tb.

this was stopped due to reduction in rate and it was viewed as no further need?
It's now on the rise and usually it has been brought in from people whom have travelled abroad to certain countries.
please kindly explain.

bakebeans · 17/08/2023 21:41

Only those at high risk of contacting TB are vaccinated. This is no longer part of a national routine vaccination programme.

oh and health care workers are not normally asked or offered this either

Hufflemuff · 17/08/2023 21:55

Soontobe60 · 14/08/2023 06:55

There are very good reasons why people want to reach the UK to seek asylum, the main one being that they already have family here. Another is that most already speak English so want to go to an English speaking country. Another is that they (mistakenly) believe that they will be made more welcome in the UK than other countries they are passing through.
Are people that stupid that they think refugees would risk drowning even though the countries they are passing through are safe? Clearly they are being told lies - smugglers make an absolute fortune by arranging the boat crossings, they get their customers by lying to them about how wonderful the Uk is.

Show quote history

Yes everything you say about Smugglers is true. However your reasons why they choose the UK and not France make me chuckle because no way would i get in a dingy for those reasons.

Asylum seeker 1: "Success! We have arrived in France! 🇫🇷"

Asylum seeker 2: "Yes but they speak French here and we have been practicing our English?"

AS1 - "You're right... we can't learn French, let's get a dingy and travel across the channel instead"

AS2 - "Good idea, the people there are so welcoming in the UK too I hear."

AS1 - "And our 2nd Cousins live in a little village called Birmingham!"