Mother of Star Hobson does not deserve sympathy

[pumpkinspice87]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12385875/amp/Family-murdered-Star-Hobson-looking-forward-welcoming-home-mother-allowed-toddler-die-hands-girlfriend-say-victim-tragedy.html

Am I being unreasonable to be absolutely sickened by this article? I get that this man is traumatised by what happened to his family, but how could anyone be so blinded as to see Star's mother as some sort of innocent victim? She was a cruel and neglectful mother who was too infatuated with her new partner to protect her baby daughter. Yes, I know she has a low IQ and learning difficulties. However, to use this as a constant excuse is an absolute insult to the many, many people in this country with learning difficulties (many of whom are parents) who would never, ever think it is acceptable to stand by and watch whilst their child is horrifically abused.

Unpopular opinion or not. Both the mother and the girlfriend should be locked up for life. They both abused that poor girl, even though it was the girlfriend who ultimately killed her. They are both evil scum and the mother being "thick" essentially is not an excuse to abuse or allow your child to be beaten to death.

Girlfriend** it wouldn't be a deterrent though to those with an IQ equal to Frankies.

If you don't have the intellectual capacity to protect yourself you can't see what's happening let alone be deterred from allowing it to happen to you.

That's why we have woman giving birth to 3/4/5 children who are all removed to care on birth. They cannot protect themselves despite knowing they won't be able to keep the baby.

"I felt like all I could have done was taken her and run off with her."

given she (her sister) would have been in a whole heap of legal trouble not to mention other societal and personal repercussions I completely understand why she didn’t.

But I really wish she had

I’ve never understood this. In my job I work with all kinds of people including those who have committed terrible crimes. I almost always feel empathy and sympathy for them.

To feel sympathy for the awful things that have led them to this, is not to absolve them of all responsibility. We can judge and punish people fairly whilst also feeling care for them as a human being. I feel sympathy for the many convicted murderers I’ve worked with who experienced horrific,horrific abuse as kids and neglect in the care system. Whilst also agreeing that they need to experience the consequences of their actions and to understand what they need to change in themselves.
On a purely practical level we can’t incarcerate everyone who has committed terrible crimes for the whole of their lives. It’s a more practical solution to help them to change. That doesn’t make what they did forgotten.

You know people used to suggest that people with dwarfism shouldn’t have children? That people with Down’s Syndrome shouldn’t have children? That other various mental and physical disabilities shouldn’t be allowed to have children?

Jeez, this thread is really dodgy. I’m not participating anymore, some really concerning suggestions of eugenics leaking out.

Ill informed post. Prison sentences don't work as a deterrent. What would work is better support from social services, better community support generally. SS failed in this case but that is probably largely down to them being over stretched, under staffed, under funded, as are all other services under this Tory government.

No one is killing a child just because they would only get 8 years in jail for goodness sake.

I don't really think Frankie Smith should be in jail at all. I don't think she is a risk to the public. Long term contraception and maybe a tag in the community would be more appropriate.

Goodness, what a leap.

Stop making the thread about you!

A baby was routinely abused, terrorised and beaten to death yet here you are calling out people who are rightly disgusted and distressed by these facts.

And yes, sterilisation in this case should be a condition of her release.

Can someone put “IQ of 70” into context please? I mean are we talking “level of a 5year old - probably shouldn’t be trusted to use an oven” or what? Is IQ even relevant when it comes to
something like this?

That's how some of the comments are reading though. If they mean this particular case because of the crime then that's one thing but bringing the IQ into it is dodgy territory

I feel sorry for her. It's hard to manage abuse. She's not a fully functioning adult. My overwhelming sympathy is with the tragically murdered child but I do feel for her. Living with the aftermath must be shattering.

What are you on about? It’s not about me, I’m replying to someone who is saying people with intellectual disabilities shouldn’t be allowed to have kids.

Maybe you should read comments more carefully before you go spouting off.

It's crackers to talk about compulsory sterilisation. If she has further children they will be adopted.

No. She doesn’t deserve sympathy. She needs sterilising when she gets out and I hope that every day of her life someone recognises her and reminds her what she did. Because, you know, she’s apparently too thick to
grasp it.

Lowest 2% of the country. Still playing with dolls aged 16. Could be around 8-10 in age terms.

The child's father impregnated somebody with the mental ability of somebody borderline for the equivalent of criminal responsibility.

I don’t know about mental age but I’d expect Frankie to be quite immature and childlike.

An IQ of 70 is quite significantly below average. I suppose you could describe it as being “hard of thinking”. It would cause problems with things like reading and numbers, but also empathy and judgement, plus general life skills like taking care of the home, staying organised, keeping appointments, personal care etc.

Smith will probably have any future children removed at birth.

I would rather the money is spent on two things:
Investigating Social Service's failings and putting measures in place to ensure they do not happen again and looking into the wider social problems that led to this.

Why was a young woman with such a low IQ allowed to parent unmonitored? Any fool can see that someone with an IQ of 70 probably won't have the greatest understanding of what it takes to parent adequately. Did she think that abuse was part and parcel of a relationship because that's what happened at home? The article mentions Smith's grandfather using methadone to kill himself with. What was the wider story with that? Was he an addict. It's also mentioned that he was 50 years old when Smith was 20. Meaning he became a grandfather at the age of 30. I don't believe for one moment that Smith came from a non-dysfunctional family.

Prison won't do a single thing to change anything. Research and training just might.

@FatNoMoreSue I wondered this about the IQ.

She was clever and bough to deceive family and social services on numerous occasions to cover up the suffering that she and her girlfriend had inflicted on Star.

She also appears in many photos as being able to look after her appearance with her hair done and her make up looking well applied.

The family say that Star was looked after, washed and cared for originally, so Frankie must have been capable of normal hygiene standards for herself and her daughter.

Not knowing the capital of Japan or the square root of 64, giving a low IQ score seems irrelevant.

There is precedent already for sterilisation: https://www.itv.com/news/2015-02-04/judge-rules-woman-with-learning-disabilities-can-be-sterilised#

An IQ of 70 is learning DISABILITY territory.

As a previous person said upthread - this will range from needing 24hr care and can’t be left un-supervised, through to being able to live independently, have a minimum wage type job (stacking shelves etc), able to do food shopping, able to get by with the help
of family/friends/carers who would help
with life admin, managing finances etc.

And everyone in between those two ends.

For people at the more severely impacted end, these people are routinely placed on some method on contraception - either pill, or injection usefully as least invasive - as they do not have the capacity to consent to sex, do not understand that sex leads to pregnancy etc. It is a legal decision taken in the persons ‘best interest’.

For those at the less impacted end, they are still vulnerable, but they may have capacity to consent to sex, may understand that sex leads to pregnancy etc. Therefore contraception is by their choice and consent.

But just because you can consent to sex, and may even want a baby, does not mean that you can care for one.

I used to work with adults with learning disabilities. We had a couple who attended our service, they’d been together for years. Both lived in 24hr care, but they their capacity to consent to sex differed. Female did have capacity and male didn’t. The lady used to talk a lot about she’d like to have a baby with her boyfriend. There would have been no way at all that would have happened. They would have forgotten to feed it after an hour, forgot it existed and left it somewhere, anything could and would have happened as they would not have been capable at all. So she was on birth control, which was a best interest decision and it would have caused her trauma to birth a baby and then have it removed, than to just not have a baby.

This. No doubt she’ll get pregnant as soon as she leaves prison.

Thing is. If someone is abusive they are often able to be sweeter than sweet in public.

I'm sure if you are so way inclined you can persuade someone that all the reports come from different people because when when fails another tries. But they know they are just upset because they took baby Star back from her great grandparents.

And the family have been vocal about how they don't think and/or agree that Frankie is gay. They've been homophobic. They made comments about her being a gypsy. Throwing the word prejudice into most things nowadays muddies the waters. Especially if it was hinted that the social workers could be accused of the same thing if they pursued it.

What worries me is that one bruise - can see why they believe it may be accidental.

But all those bruises and the reports of abuse. I wonder if any of the previous reports were ever linked or looked at?

@NeverDropYourMooncup I'd be inclined to think you were exaggerating if I hadn't seen this first hand. A friend's father died in quite an unusual way. It was a horrible time made only worse by the fact that the media hounding of the family began immediately and continued for many years. Imagine thinking it's appropriate to interrupt a bereaved and grieving family just to fill a page in a newspaper.

no doubt the police were scared. They’re afraid of the traveler community. They knew it wasn’t prejudice but they didn’t want to mess with a traveler IMO. I’ve seen this play out in other contexts

some men are sick. She was basically a child but because to him she looked like an attractive older teen he probably didn’t care. There’s a few young women like her I’ve seen get pregnant and i always think either the father also has LD or he’s just perverted.

Honestly, you are taking this way too personally.

Stop having a go at people who think Smith shouldn't ever have the chance to give birth again.

She was complicit - and her own abuse towards Star is documented.

It is extraordinary that you cannot see that this whole conversation is about this woman and safeguarding future babies or rather, preventing them being born.

The article mentions Smith's grandfather using methadone to kill himself with. What was the wider story with that?
Another article says he was a heroin addict for all of Frankie's childhood and that Frankie went to live with her grandparents, but Frankie's mother used to take her out and they'd go out on the lash together.

So it doesn't sound like she had great parenting role models.
Not that that is any excuse for what she did! It sounds like she had wider family who desperately tried to help and support her and Star.