So many child haters here

[Sabrinasummersamples]

So many threads on here seem to attract the same sort of answer along the lines of
-In my day we'd have got a smack. Never did me any harm. Give em a clip round the ear.
-kids today are entitled shrieky brats
-kids should stand for adults
-kids shouldn't be allowed in restaurants

Yet often those same posters are the first to call "agism" when people disagree.
Why do so many people hold such contempt for kids?
I mean I know kids can be annoying but honestly you could say that about any group of people. Plus we were all kids once 🤷

This place is called Mumsnet, yet it appears to be bursting with people who hate both women and children.

No seems to admit their kids are badly behaved it is always everyone elses fault, usually schools of course

"I am going down there to play hell" I wonder where the kids learn the behaviour from?

Some mums hate children who aren't their own (and sometimes the ones who are their own) and unfortunately being female doesn't mean you can't be misogynistic. There are also dog owners on here who don't like other people dogs or other dog owners etc. People are odd in all kinds of ways!

They should move to a forum which should be called hatersnet

What bollocks.

And I think tends to be from a certain age group, who think things should go back to the good old ways of their youth. When children were seen and not heard.

Do you mean those in their nineties? Not a lot of them on MN.

In the UK (and no doubt many other places) children hold a widespread cultural status similar to that of dogs. Eg:

• Children are an indulgence and are solely the individual responsibility of their parents
• Children should obey and behave. This takes priority over all other aspects of their development
• Play has no specific purpose other than to exercise children so that they behave better
• Children are not equally deserving of respect and consideration. They should defer to the wants/needs of adults and this relates to their status as extensions/property of their parents (who shouldn't take up more space or resources as a result of having children than if they chose not to)
• It is necessary to dominate children and they respond best to a strict hierarchal and authoritarian family /society structure, literally in the same way as dogs/wolves
• Children are not part of human society and are not equally entitled to enjoy public spaces. Ideally they should be sequestered into "child-friendly" spaces or stay at home

Unlike dogs, and in this respect their status is worse than that of dogs:

• Children are not innocent, in fact they're guilty of being intrinsically bad. They begin to manipulate others from infancy. If they are not frequently punished, or if they are given any leeway on bad behaviour then they will turn out to be morally bad adults
• Children respond to punishment and in the right circumstances it is acceptable to discipline children by physically assaulting them, locking them up, depriving them of affection and company etc
• Despite all of the above as soon as (and very possibly before) they turn 18 they are expected to become adults who are responsible and functioning members of society, and who will contribute to the support of society including older adults

Obviously not everyone adheres to all of those but these are widely held and accepted beliefs so it's no wonder that people talk about children as they do. People with these attitudes don't view themselves as hating children just as those of us who think dogs should be on a leash don't usually hate dogs. It's just that children aren't dogs.

It’s not shite though. Family isn’t important, children and the elderly are not treasured. British society is fractured. Our culture is very individualistic. Just have a look at Greek or Italian societal attitudes towards the more vulnerable members of society, couldn’t be more different to the UK. Solipsism rules in Britain.

All of this is, very sadly, spot on 👏🏼 👏🏼

👏 😄

Perhaps those who don't have children - especially gasp by choice! - are supposed to be providing free childcare and training other people's children to behave.

Quite. Just unbelievable.

@ChickenMacaroni and all the god damn others who have said this this is because they are children…..their brains are not fully developed won’t be until their 25 with some areas of the brain. Toddlers pre-schoolers etc. those most likely to squeal, throw sand etc. have an under developed pre frontal cortex which makes them do yes sometimes annoying and sometimes stupid things. Parents do need to deal with this things but you can deal with them over and over again - very successfully but on occasion these things will still happen…..are parents and mothers not allowed to leave their house with their children jic???

Gentle parenting I have question marks over because I think it’s like the keto diet - only works if you fully understand it and follow it to the letter - People don’t. No parenting technique eliminates the things above completely - apart from beating the absolute shit out of children and instilling abject fear. I mean it works and Clearly that’s what many on here would love to but I am thankful we have tried to move on from that.

Although not fully. I often wonder when these child abuse cases come up in the news and you think surely other adults have noticed - well of course they have, they just don’t care and probably think it’s acceptable.

And yes to the person up thread (sorry can’t go back to) who commented that this is a uniquely British thing - recently travelled to Indian subcontinent and mainland Europe with DC and couldn’t believe how kind and and welcoming people were to us as a family and the children.

And If someone is required to pay for their minor to have a seat and that minor gets to the the seat first then they get the seat first - fecking unbelievable that one!!

@Littlemissfroggy 👏👏👏👏

@Littlemissfroggy that's exactly it. I've never seen it written down so clearly but I agree with everything you've said.

Most kids today are badly brought up.
Everybody's child seems to have some unique quirk that makes teaching them manners "challenging" or not applicable to them.

I don't think we should go back to the good old days of clips around the ear but I do think "seen and not heard" was actually a pretty good system. You do notice on holiday that it's only the UK kids who are loud. You notice kids aren't taught anymore to lower their voices in public spaces, which is what anyone of any age should do really whether you're in a library or a cafe or a bus.

Great post Littlemissfroggy. Some people have that sort of seen and not heard attitude and think that children shouldn't be children.

I do think the rise of people calling their lazy/permissive parenting "gentle parenting" is leading to an increase in the opposite outlook too, where children should be everywhere, but should be able to do what they like 'because they're children'. Real gentle parenting is about teaching children how to behave, putting them in situations where they're likely to succeed, and holding boundaries calmly and authoritatively (rather than naughty step, isolation, shouting, shaming).

I don't think it's unreasonable to take children out to a cafe or a restaurant, but do think it's reasonable that they generally behave for the circumstances. (Eg colouring, at their table, talking, small toys, device with headphones if that's what the parents want). It is unreasonable to me for parents to allow lots of loud shrieking, shouting, charging around in that situation. The children don't learn how to behave in different situations if the parents decide that everywhere is a loud charging around space.

How have you manage to come to that conclusion @Finlesswonder do share your research?

@LolaSmiles
Yeah I think the volume issue is the big one. Yesterday I was in a hotel in another country and went down for breakfast. It was 7am and there was an English family with two kids, they weren't shouting or shrieking but the kids were speaking really loudly, like "we're at a BBQ" loud. I just found it unbelievable that the parents weren't kind of hushing them or asking them to speak in a low voice (which is what everyone else was doing).
The attitude seems to have shifted from "we're sharing this space with lots of other people who are up early to start their day" to "Hey! Kids are kids! It's breakfast, and this is how my kids talk at breakfast at home so I don't see why we would do it differently on holiday!".

It's really weird because these parents are millennials, they would have been raised that way themselves so not sure why they aren't applying it to their own kids. Maybe this generation of small children will grow up to form a society that's so unbearably loud and "my needs" focused that they then swing the other way when they have kids of their own, and we might see a more Victorian style of parenting making a comeback in around 2050?

Finlesswonder
I think the actions of the parents is the difference, you're right.

I know I can take my DC out with me and that they'll be generally well behaved and use an appropriate volume. They're children though so they might need some reminders. Most of my friends are the same.
Some parents think fog horn/playground/at the park volume is acceptable everywhere and that it should be accepted by everyone else "because kids".

I don't hate children. I hate shitty parents who can't be arsed to parent said children and as a result I am affected by their bad behaviour.

I identify with gentle parenting and actually I don't think it's difficult, I think it's the most natural and easiest way to parent. However, you have to have overcome certain messages/beliefs/patterns from your own childhood and you have to have the emotional maturity to sit with your child's emotions and to not be reactive - that's the most difficult part.

Eg gentle parenting
Child "I want an ice-cream"
Adult "We're not having an ice-cream right now because it's nearly lunchtime"
Child's emotional response which may include tantrum (usually related to factors like tiredness, hunger etc not whether they are "good" or "bad")
Adult does not relent and buy an ice-cream but neither do they scream at or punish the child for a completely normal emotional response. They help the child to identify the emotions, offer them empathy and try to redirect attention positively. They do not lose control. This is clearly not permissive aka "lazy" parenting.

I find the idea that gentle parenting is actually lazy/lax parenting interesting as in my experience self identifying gentle parents are parenting very consciously and are often (too) perfectionist. Gentle parenting is a type of authoritative parenting - it's not permissive parenting.

Often re "badly behaving" children whilst there may be aspects of permissive parenting I think the bigger factor is straightforward rolemodelling. If you demonstrate to children that when you have power over them you will exercise that power arbitrarily to do what you want without considering their needs/wants, then they will adopt a similar position towards you and others if they find that they are in the position of power. If you resolve conflict with your children by shouting, they will learn to resolve conflict by shouting. Etc Children who aren't considerate toward others are typically copying their parents who aren't considerate to others or them.

In these cases becoming (even) more authoritarian (which is different than authoritative) will work to suppress unwanted behaviour through fear, leading to the belief that "lax parenting" is the problem. But imo a better alternative is to teach children empathy and respect by showing them empathy and respect (!), which authoritarian parenting does not. It's completely possible to show children empathy and respect whilst remaining in control and giving them the security of boundaries and clear expectations.

Those who decide it's "gentle parenting" that's the issue when they see permissive parenting are unlikely to have asked the parents if they are "gentle parenting" so I kind of suspect they're just blaming gentle parenting based on their own misconceptions of what it is. Positioning authoritarian parenting as the only alternative to permissive parenting is obviously something that an authoritarian is likely to do. It doesn't make it true.

@Littlemissfroggy i agree with you and good post. The Icecream but is a good example. Losing it or relenting are likely easier than dealing with each situation as you say.

Good post.

To some, gentle parenting is any method that doesn't involve screaming and shouting or even hitting. Those people think that if you're not demonstrably doing those things then you're not in charge.

I

I only see it really on dog threads. Where people’s only defence of their poor training of their badly behaved mutts is ‘but but children are worse’.