So many child haters here

[Sabrinasummersamples]

So many threads on here seem to attract the same sort of answer along the lines of
-In my day we'd have got a smack. Never did me any harm. Give em a clip round the ear.
-kids today are entitled shrieky brats
-kids should stand for adults
-kids shouldn't be allowed in restaurants

Yet often those same posters are the first to call "agism" when people disagree.
Why do so many people hold such contempt for kids?
I mean I know kids can be annoying but honestly you could say that about any group of people. Plus we were all kids once 🤷

There's a lot of it on here.
Kids in garden too noisy
Kids in house should be outside
Kids in cafes on screens
Kids in cafes should be quieter
Kid spoke to my kid
Kid didn't speak to my kid
Kid cheeky
Kid quiet

The list goes on, I believe about a third of the opinions on here are real at best.

But people are generally more grumpy nowadays and tolerance has significantly dropped, not just with kids with everything. On here in particular

I also think many millennials are choosing to parent differently (less authoritarian) because though they are "successful" in terms of career, education, socially acceptable behaviour etc they are also struggling with their own self esteem, boundaries, mental health and life direction. And they relate this to a childhood of (well-intentioned) emotional invalidation. There is less of a belief in the societal grind - adherence to the authoritarian systems of education and traditional work is far less rewarding than for previous generations. Duty and obedience are more likely to result in exploitation than reciprocation.

Rising awareness and discussions around emotional and mental health are causing parents to think more carefully about what they are hoping to achieve when they parent (an adult that behaves well because they are frightened or ashamed of the alternatives Vs a well rounded adult who is emotionally mature, empathetic and able to balance consideration and respect for others alongside self advocacy and self respect).

@Littlemissfroggy I think you've pretty much put into words exactly what I was thinking actually.

And posts like this one are exactly the sort of thing I was talking about:

Finlesswonder · Today 06:28
Most kids today are badly brought up.
Everybody's child seems to have some unique quirk that makes teaching them manners "challenging" or not applicable to them.

I don't think we should go back to the good old days of clips around the ear but I do think "seen and not heard" was actually a pretty good system. You do notice on holiday that it's only the UK kids who are loud.

It's just not true. I have 8 year olds. I've spent quite a lot of time with their school mates and even with their whole class because I try and take time off work to help out on school trips or events. On the whole the kids are well behaved. Sure one or 2 are a bit more challenging, but honestly those couple of kids DO have SEN however much the seen and not heard brigade might deny it, and actually they're not even that "badly" behaved anyway.
And other than at softplay (which is admittedly hell on earth) I very rarely hear kids actually shrieking.
And no, the "certain age" I was referring to is not in their 90s. In my experience the very elderly actually do seem to love kids. It tends to be late 50s to say 70s I'd say. Obviously not all of them at all. Plenty of people in this age group love kids but I really have heard a lot of harping on about how in the "60s we had respect"
But you know what? Ive also seen plenty of horrendous behaviour from that age group!. You don't get respect and reverence just for making it to a certain age. You actually have to earn it by being a decent person first. And actually I hope some of those kids you were horrible to end up working in your nursing home and remember!

FWIW I wouldn't say I've heard more hate from child free. I'd say there is just as much that comes from those whose kids have grown up.

And lastly, British kids are NOT in my experience worse behaved than those from elsewhere. This is just the same old crap that gets brought out regularly. I guess kids from Europe say, do spend more time in adult company, because they're accepted more as members of society, so maybe they have more experience. When we were in Crete recently, we noticed that the ones who were allowed to run around and generally make a nuisance of themselves in an outside restaurant were French speaking. And I mean really make a nuisance of themselves. They were climbing on the walls that separated the restaurant from a drop to the beach and pushing each other off a pretty big drop while their parents ignored them.

Those who decide it's "gentle parenting" that's the issue when they see permissive parenting are unlikely to have asked the parents if they are "gentle parenting" so I kind of suspect they're just blaming gentle parenting based on their own misconceptions of what it is. Positioning authoritarian parenting as the only alternative to permissive parenting is obviously something that an authoritarian is likely to do. It doesn't make it true.
I agree with you.
My parenting would fall under the gentle parenting umbrella.

I think it matters that those of us who take a empathetic and authoritative approach have to keep making it clear that permissive and lazy parenting is not gentle parenting if attitudes are going to change.
I always say on threads that people won't notice people who take the genuinely gentle parenting approach because they'll look like any other parent calmly holding boundaries.

Exactly this! If I hear a toddler having a meltdown I try not to look as I feel "we've all been there" and it's bloody hard

Kids are bloody awful to be around generally. I actively avoid them where I can

Tbf I don't judge parents if their baby or toddler is crying - I've been there too. I remember once in a cafe when DD was only a few months old, she wouldn't settle so I kept taking her outside so as not to disturb the other customers. Two separate groups of older people told me not to worry and that they'd all been there - it was lovely.

But I do judge when parents let older children run rampant in public places.

Same here! We have two young DC so wouldn't actually go out for long drawn out meals where we know they would ultimately get bored trying to sit still for so long.

We do however go for breakfast and lunch a lot to family friendly places where we know children are made welcome.

All this talk of poor parenting as well is frustrating. My children have been brought up with the same morals I was; don't litter, use manners etc.

I've met more unpolite adults than I have children!

The same little darlings then grow up to go around robbing shops with impunity. And smash stuff up. Oh but you can’t say anything. It will hurt the feelings of the kids or parents. See the running thread on shoplifting.

If you’re a shit parent, people will dislike your kids. It’s not rocket science.

They should go to Reddit. They'd fit right in. They really hate women and children there.

I also read it that you are referencing childlessness with a rise in selfishness. Is that not what you are actually saying?

Parents are just as selfish as any other adult. People make allowances for those close/dear to them, everyone else can go hang.

Do you really think that?

That being badly behaved in a restaurant leads to a life of crime?

What sort of horrors do you believe 50+ people are inflicting on children that would warrant 'remembering' and avenging, should those children grow up to be their carers? Surely expressing a dislike of badly behaved children isn't deserving of neglect or abuse in a care home?
Not to mention, that many people you are targeting with your ageism are actually parents of young children themselves. My friend is 55. Her children are 10 and 8.
I don't know what purpose you think you're serving in perpetuating intergenerational suspicion and hostility like this. Do you think if we raise children to think people in a certain age group hate them, then you are going to be seen as as the exception when you're in your that age group yourself? Ageism is the one prejudice where perpetuating it means you really will reap what you sow.

Are you seriously suggesting I'm agist even after I said

the "certain age" I was referring to is not in their 90s. In my experience the very elderly actually do seem to love kids. It tends to be late 50s to say 70s I'd say. Obviously not all of them at all. Plenty of people in this age group love kids but I really have heard a lot of harping on about how in the "60s we had respect"

I quite clearly said that not everyone in this age group hates kids. And if you're looking for agist posts, why not read some of the many many PP on this same thread, where plenty of people are slagging off kids and parents.
If you are a child hater / horrible to kids then yes I DO hope some of them remember it when you're old and end up in a position to re-pay you if you're not then it doesn't apply to you, so not sure why you're concerned.

I love this! 😂

And no, the "certain age" I was referring to is not in their 90s. In my experience the very elderly actually do seem to love kids. It tends to be late 50s to say 70s I'd say. Obviously not all of them at all. ... But you know what? Ive also seen plenty of horrendous behaviour from that age group!. You don't get respect and reverence just for making it to a certain age. You actually have to earn it by being a decent person first. And actually I hope some of those kids you were horrible to end up working in your nursing home and remember!

Absolutely not ageist, you say.

So long as you are talking about older people in their 50s to 70s... that is not ageist.

Nope. Not agist to suggest that most people with the "seen and not heard" or "in my day" attitude tend to be of a particular age. That's just a fact. Especially when I've clearly said "obviously not all of them at all"
And particularly not in the context of the entire thread which is about agism towards kids. Who are not, contrary to the belief of many it would seem, lesser humans just because they are younger.

Oh, you mean the most likely age to be grandparents to young or youngish children? Not wanting to be your unpaid childcare slave does not equal child hating.

Erm I don't want an unpaid slave thanks. That's quite a leap from me saying about the attitude of "seen but not heard" and "in my day"
I haven't come across many of these horrible people in real life, luckily. I've only come across child / parent haters like you on mumsnet. It seems to be where lots congregate for some reason. Let me guess though, when you were young you were taught to respect your elders, right? Stand up and give them your seat on a bus from about the age of 4? Not speak unless spoken to? Know your place? Kids today don't know they're born. I bet you had to walk 4 miles to school and back every day too, right 🙄

Why are you quoting my post to say that?

It is the very definition of ageism.

Maybe look up the meaning of the word.

It's pointless wasting energy arguing the toss really isn't it. I'm sure 75% of all this crap is made up: "my kids never shrieked" "my kids never left under the stairs"

I bet half the people being the nastiest have the worst kids, I'd put money on it in fact.

I like kids. I seem to be in the minority in that I like other people's kids as well as my own. I do think we need to teach them how to be part of and thrive in the society we currently live in, which is very different in many ways to the society which we grew up in.

@Littlemissfroggy There is less of a belief in the societal grind - adherence to the authoritarian systems of education and traditional work is far less rewarding than for previous generations. Duty and obedience are more likely to result in exploitation than reciprocation.

I agree with this. Unfortunately there are no prizes for not speaking up and fighting your corner. Many of the markers of a 'well-behaved' child in the past - quiet in the presence of adults, perfect manners, never talking back, obedient and compliant - are unlikely to serve children well nowadays as they grow into adulthood. Life is tougher nowadays in many ways and so kids will need to be prepared to put themselves out there and scrap a bit in many cases to achieve the best they can. Teaching them to conform and avoid confrontation isn't going to be helpful.

Also, children in the past were often afraid of their parents and other authority figures. It is far easier to secure instant compliance - for instance, sitting quietly at table - through fear than it is through reasoning with children and teaching them why it is important to do certain things.

I remember eating potato soup (which I hated) at school until I was almost gagging because I was afraid of the lunch lady shouting at me for being 'bad'. I can't imagine my DC doing that nowadays, I'm pleased to say.

Yep. In my nearly 50 years on this earth I'm well aware that children are part of society and even though I don't want any myself, if I want to be out and about in society, I have to put up with them.

However, I'm sick to death of seeing feral children and their useless, feckless, ineffective parents. I never blame the children - so don't bother with the child hater narrative - I blame and dislike the selfish arsehole parents....who no doubt agree with op that I'm the one who's selfish 🤣🤣🤣