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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that PARTNER is an inclusive word we should use

258 replies

KajsaKavat · 09/08/2023 11:06

Apropos the boyfriend on holiday thread I got a bit shocked how people reacted to OP describing him as partner and calling her out saying due to their ages he can only ever be a boyfriend.

I have teens myself and they all refer to the
person they’re dating as partner.
teens are all about being inclusive and using non gender specific terms, surely this is a good thing.

OP posts:
Tandora · 10/08/2023 13:35

Naunet · 10/08/2023 08:48

😂🤣😂 no they didn’t, no man was claiming a dress made him female 40 years ago.

I don’t understand how you can think this. Trans people have existed across all cultures, throughout all history. Please educate yourself.

Anyways not the point of this thread.

applesandmares · 10/08/2023 13:39

@SerafinasGoose isn't it a bit contradictory to say that you won't be policed with regards to words yet will 'correct' someone for referring to you as cis? Unless you identify as a different gender to the sex observed at birth of course. In other words, you don't wish to be policed, but wish to police others?

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 10/08/2023 14:41

I don’t understand how you can think this. Trans people have existed across all cultures, throughout all history. Please educate yourself.

Did you actually read the comment to which you posted this in response? Of course there have always been some people who wanted to be the opposite sex. The surprisingly widespread belief that you can actually change sex by altering the way you look is probably pretty recent though.

NotAMug · 10/08/2023 14:44

applesandmares · 10/08/2023 13:39

@SerafinasGoose isn't it a bit contradictory to say that you won't be policed with regards to words yet will 'correct' someone for referring to you as cis? Unless you identify as a different gender to the sex observed at birth of course. In other words, you don't wish to be policed, but wish to police others?

But why has someone suddenly decided we cannot be called women or men and need to have CIS stuck in front if it. I am a women, not a CIS woman. If someone is transitioning or has transitioned they are a trans woman. Explain where the CIS is required? I don't think it's contradictory, people are policing the proper uses of the words woman and man. They mean what they mean, no CIS required.

applesandmares · 10/08/2023 14:55

@NotAMug there is certainly no requirement to put 'cis' in front of anything; indeed no one has ever referred to me as a cis woman. Some people choose to use that terminology and they wouldn't be wrong. I was born female, and identify that way 🤷🏻‍♀️

NotAMug · 10/08/2023 14:57

@applesandmares it is a new thing to actually refer to people in that way though, women are women. The reason people want to use CIS is because they want anyone who wants to present female to be able to say they are a woman instead of just the people who are actually the definition of a woman.

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 10/08/2023 15:01

@SerafinasGoose isn't it a bit contradictory to say that you won't be policed with regards to words yet will 'correct' someone for referring to you as cis?

Objecting to someone else calling you by a (controversial and recently adopted) term is quite different from telling people what they should call themselves or their partner.

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 10/08/2023 15:08

Some people choose to use that terminology and they wouldn't be wrong. I was born female, and identify that way 🤷🏻‍♀️

I'm sure we can all think of some terminology to describe certain categories of people which is technically 'not wrong' but which would be considered offensive or inappropriate.

Besides, from what I gather, the term 'cis' is a scientific term which had no obvious connection to the new meaning it's been given, but was adopted (probably to help make the claims of TRAs sound more logical and rational).

I don't 'identify' as female. I simply factually am female. There's no need to identify as something you actually are.

applesandmares · 10/08/2023 15:15

@NotAMug Yes it's new but that doesn't mean it's wrong. It isn't an improper use of a word.

@AllProperTeaIsTheft absolutely it's different to the use of the word partner 😂 and I don't mean to derail the thread, but I didn't introduce this topic, I was responding to another poster who did.

If you accept gender exists (which I do) then you accept the idea that people may have a gender identity, that may or may not align with their biological sex.

If you don't accept that gender exists, and so don't accept that trans people exist, then I can understand why you wouldn't use the prefix 'trans' or 'cis'. That doesn't mean that you should police others though, nor they police you.

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 10/08/2023 15:24

If you don't accept that gender exists, and so don't accept that trans people exist

Of course gender exists - it's a set of stereotypes based on traditional sex-based norms and expectations which were finally gradually being dismantled until recently. Gender in the sense of a nebulous internal feeling unrelated to your biological sex doesn't exist. That's just personality.

Not believing in the new concepts of gender identity doesn't mean you don't believe trans people exist though. Trans people are people who are not comfortable with their biological sex and want to be the opposite sex. Of course they exist.

NotAMug · 10/08/2023 15:26

@applesandmares I completely disagree, believing that someone is trans still doesn't mean CIS ever needs to be used unless it's for scientific purposes. I am a woman, i was born a woman, still identity as a woman so therefore I am a woman, a man who has transistioned is a trans woman so there is no need for the word CIS.

I do believe that there are genuines cases of gender dysphoria, I don't believe that people who don't fit 'gender norms' are trans. That said, I always ensure I treat people kindly and use whatever pronouns they ask me to use, it has no effect on me really and I would always be inclusive and treat people as I would want to be treated. However, I will always stand up for women's rights, well I stand up for everyone's rights actually and for people to be treated fairly and equally.

applesandmares · 10/08/2023 15:50

@AllProperTeaIsTheft

Trans people are people who are not comfortable with their biological sex and want to be the opposite sex.

If you don't believe in gender identity, how do you explain why someone would not be comfortable with their sex and want to be the opposite sex? The ordinary answer seems to be that there is a 'feeling' of being born in the wrong body etc I.e their gender identity doesn't match their biological sex. If you don't accept that, what do you think drives it?

@NotAMug absolutely respect your right to disagree and use whatever prefixes or pronouns you're comfortable with.

MillicentTrilbyHiggins · 10/08/2023 15:56

If you don't accept that gender exists, and so don't accept that trans people exist

If someone doesn't accept/believe that God exists, does that mean they don't accept that religious people exist?

I don't believe in innate gender identity. That doesn't mean I don't accept that others do.

Quisquam · 10/08/2023 16:20

*As a professional what😂😂.

this has to be one of the most pretentious things I have read on mumsnet in a while.*

Accountants, lawyers, doctors, architects, etc - they are usually partnerships (possibly LLPs), so the people actually running the business are called the partners and what they say goes, because the buck stops with them. Typically there are equity partners, salaried partners and then the qualified staff, who can variously be directors, senior managers, managers, associates or salaried GPs, and then the trainees.

Have you never read the threads on here about GP practices, and how they are constituted?

SerafinasGoose · 10/08/2023 16:34

applesandmares · 10/08/2023 13:39

@SerafinasGoose isn't it a bit contradictory to say that you won't be policed with regards to words yet will 'correct' someone for referring to you as cis? Unless you identify as a different gender to the sex observed at birth of course. In other words, you don't wish to be policed, but wish to police others?

Only if you're being wilfully obtuse. There's a vast difference between stating your own preferred terms of address and attempting to foist them on other people.

Ie. if Philip suddenly introduces himself as Phyllis one day, I'll call him Phyllis. If Phyllis states personal pronouns habitutally, fine. I won't be acting upon the expectation to do the same.

Gender is a distinct category from sex and its assumed relation to sex is entirely arbitrary. It's a set of social stereotypes based around the expected behaviour and appearance of the sexes in accordance with social convention. At best, it's a diktat on people's behaviour, usually disseminated by the most dominant social groups. At worst - and this is where the rot set in with pinkification etc. - it is merely someone's marketing strategy.

The idea that 'gender' is a corporate concept is an interesting one indeed: I'd love to read any studies carried out into how far it's dependent upon capitalism or vice-versa. The trouble is, such a study would never in a million years net any funding.

What is plain, when you drill down into it, is that gender has little, if anything, to do with sex. But it undeniably exists, (albeit nebulously and no one seems able to define precisely what it is). IMO it's an extremely damaging concept to men, women and trans people alike. Toxic masculinity has been extremely harmful, but as the less dominant sex, women in particular have suffered as a result of this.

Why on earth would I want to 'identify' with the instrument of my own oppression?

JustMaggie · 10/08/2023 16:45

"Partner" always makes me think of a cowboy western movie... howdy partner 🙂

LlynTegid · 10/08/2023 16:55

I get the use of a non-specific term that recognises unmarried relationships, same sex relationships, or simply not wanting to make a mistake or presumption.

I just don't like the word partner for it. I wish there was a better word. Partner reminds me of dancing or business partner.

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 10/08/2023 17:00

If you don't believe in gender identity, how do you explain why someone would not be comfortable with their sex and want to be the opposite sex?

Surely that is very obvious? Since time immemorial, sex-based stereotypes have made people feel wrong and uncomfortable if they didn't conform to them. So it's not that surprising that those who feel this most strongly might want to be the opposite sex. All the more reason to continue dismantling this system of stereotypes rather than reinforcing them (in the way that gender ideology does).

It was bad enough when the attitude was 'Being a woman means that you should look/act/dress like this, and being a man should look/act like that'. But gender ideology has pushed it one stage further by actually making the stereotypes determine who you are. 'If you look/act/dress like this, you're a woman (regardless of your actual sex).' Ridiculous and regressive.

namechangingplatypus · 10/08/2023 21:14

I would only call someone my partner if I was living with them (and not married). Otherwise I would still say boyfriend (or girlfriend, although in my case it would probably be a boyfriend) even though I'm middle-aged. I think if you say partner people tend to assume you're living together.

CurlewKate · 10/08/2023 22:02

"Partner" always makes me think of a cowboy western movie... howdy partner" No it doesn't. Or if it does, a nanosecond spent considering the context will clear up any confusion. Ditto whether the couple concerned are about to do some conveyancing or a quick tango.

CurlewKate · 10/08/2023 22:04

It's a bit like people who say "Gay? It used to mean happy-they never look very happy to me....."

Tandora · 11/08/2023 18:21

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 10/08/2023 14:41

I don’t understand how you can think this. Trans people have existed across all cultures, throughout all history. Please educate yourself.

Did you actually read the comment to which you posted this in response? Of course there have always been some people who wanted to be the opposite sex. The surprisingly widespread belief that you can actually change sex by altering the way you look is probably pretty recent though.

You clearly don’t understand what it is to be gender diverse or trans.
Instead of leaping to judgements, based on a very narrow set of ideas and experiences, why don’t you listen with curiosity to someone who lives that experience everyday. You might learn a thing or twos

Tandora · 11/08/2023 18:23

NotAMug · 10/08/2023 10:00

I didn't say gender diverse people didn't exist, not sure where you got that from. I have plenty of life experience thanks, I also am not someone who jumps on someone's post and makes ridiculous assumptions. Being gender diverse does not mean excluding people, unfortunately teens today don't actually understand gender diversity, it's a fair representation of all genders, not pretending males or females don't exist!

What you’ve written is quite incoherent, I would wager the average teen today has a much more sophisticated understanding of gender diversity than this.

Tandora · 11/08/2023 18:24

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 10/08/2023 17:00

If you don't believe in gender identity, how do you explain why someone would not be comfortable with their sex and want to be the opposite sex?

Surely that is very obvious? Since time immemorial, sex-based stereotypes have made people feel wrong and uncomfortable if they didn't conform to them. So it's not that surprising that those who feel this most strongly might want to be the opposite sex. All the more reason to continue dismantling this system of stereotypes rather than reinforcing them (in the way that gender ideology does).

It was bad enough when the attitude was 'Being a woman means that you should look/act/dress like this, and being a man should look/act like that'. But gender ideology has pushed it one stage further by actually making the stereotypes determine who you are. 'If you look/act/dress like this, you're a woman (regardless of your actual sex).' Ridiculous and regressive.

Lol. And yet here you are policing people’s identities based on sex stereotypes. Anyway.

Boomboom22 · 11/08/2023 18:31

Surely trans people have an issue with gender diversity, that's why they need to trans.