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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Women end up being losers no matter what

176 replies

doireallywanttostartthisnow · 08/08/2023 23:34

Situation A: well educated woman meets man, marries, has child, feels overwhelmed by childcare cost/ options, gives up work, has another child, finds it hard to get back into wink place now eldest is at school, needs to be around for the month of half days, sick days, strike days, nursery closures and so as not to interrupt husbands career so he can earn more 'family money'. Husband ends up resentful, doesn't pay into pension for dear wife, moans about work stress that she doesn't understand. Wife feels too belittled to return to work or goes into something way below her level of experience. She used to be a marketing manager but now she works at a local toy shop as it's shorter hours and flexible (but MW and business may go bust/ no room for progression).

Situation B: same woman does not give up career, goes back after mat leave, faces judgement, works for free due to childcare costs until eldest is 3. Uses holiday club and wraparound childcare. Feels like a hamster on a wheel and knows none of the parents names as she's never in the after school park club. Still has to deal with all the house/ life admin. Resents husband. Leaves the bastard. Now officially does everything alone (woohoo?). Ex DH pays a minimal amount which only covers some childcare. Woman may be financially better off but is exhausted and also faces judgement due to leaving the marriage.

The problem is that hardly anyone is in situation C meaning happy, less stressed, supported, financially independent and in a truly equal marriage. I know about three women who are.
So what do we teach our daughters? Don't have kids? Choose better men? So few men appear to be bellends when we first meet them at art school? None of them appear to be moany, vindictive, controlling, feeble, martyr like or miserly?
How do we ever move on from the fate of being either supported ('kept') or independent ('exhausted')?

OP posts:
Nevermay · 08/08/2023 23:43

my life - single, asexual, no relationships ever, several children by arrangement with "sperm donors" - foreign men I met at university, men who were going back to their own countries and intended to be untraceable - also through adoption.

Worked full time and borrowed to pay child care and mortgage, we were absolutely brassic but had a great time, I frequently couldn't afford 3 meals a day for muyself, although the children never went without food, got very good at patching up clothes and finding free events and activities! all holidays were camping by public transport - worked in a school so off work at the same time as the children, I was the boss, no other adult in the house disagreeing with me, or criticising me or making work for me.

FF to today, mortgage paid, one child married and living with wife, two others graduated and working but still living at home, for free, no rent while they save up.

Very happy and loving family ( it is just us, I have no other relatives but many good friends) have kept my career going, am financially comfortable, now we take holidays abroad! And have loved raising a family and have no regrets at all about anything

This woman has never been a loser

Original poster
doireallywanttostartthisnow · 08/08/2023 23:52

@Nevermay who did you borrow off? It's very unlikely that in this day and age you would be allowed a mortgage if you were struggling to feed yourself. The affordability criteria for a single applicant is very harsh.
Apart from that I identify with parts of your experience.

OP posts:
DojaPhat · 08/08/2023 23:54

A lot of women only really hit this realisation once the ship has sailed and they're on the deck. For the women who consider that a life otherwise spent would be more worthwhile, it's often the case their detractors are other women.

For my part, all I can say is that freedom, be it emotionally, financially and mental agility are paramount if a woman is going to have any fighting chance at navigating life with regards to work, motherhood and relationships.

WhateverMate · 08/08/2023 23:56

Situation B: same woman does not give up career, goes back after mat leave, faces judgement, works for free due to childcare costs until eldest is 3.

How is she working for free?

Surely both parents split the childcare cost?

DrasticAction · 08/08/2023 23:56

Or situation z woman takes sometime out when babies, struggles but also cherishes that time, then when they are at school she goes back to work?

determinedtomakethiswork · 08/08/2023 23:57

@Nevermay how were you allowed to adopt when you had several children and absolutely no money?

DrasticAction · 08/08/2023 23:58

Op theses sorts of scenarios never quantify the good things about simply looking after your own dc. Yes it's not easy and at many times mundane but it's also a privalidge.

ReginaRegina · 08/08/2023 23:58

DrasticAction · 08/08/2023 23:56

Or situation z woman takes sometime out when babies, struggles but also cherishes that time, then when they are at school she goes back to work?

This.

She may have sacrificed a bit of experience and therefore money but she still has decades in front of her and the opportunity to make decent money. Especially if she's white, middle class, and well educated.

Nevermay · 08/08/2023 23:59

doireallywanttostartthisnow · 08/08/2023 23:52

@Nevermay who did you borrow off? It's very unlikely that in this day and age you would be allowed a mortgage if you were struggling to feed yourself. The affordability criteria for a single applicant is very harsh.
Apart from that I identify with parts of your experience.

I borrowed from the bank largely- yes I think mortgages were easier to get in the past, I was lucky there. My children are finding it hard to save up enough to get a mortgage

Palmtreesinwinter · 09/08/2023 00:00

Why is she paying thr childcare in option b? Only fair way is they both pay (or household pot)

Nevermay · 09/08/2023 00:01

determinedtomakethiswork · 08/08/2023 23:57

@Nevermay how were you allowed to adopt when you had several children and absolutely no money?

through fostering - I fostered many children, I adopted one

LadyHester · 09/08/2023 00:01

So true - except that in scenario B she would have half the equity in the marital home and (assuming husband had a well paid job commensurate with her level of education) would have been able to secure a decent level of provision for the children in the divorce settlement.
If she was potentially the higher earner then she was a numpty to give up work.

HereForTheFreeLunch · 09/08/2023 00:01

Our sons need to be raised better.
Dh, for all his faults, always paid into my pension when I was not working and a SAHM. Savings have also always been 50:50 irrespective of how much it was.
And I did my best to get back into a career. We both are now coasting in middle management and can work around the kids.

LondonLovie · 09/08/2023 00:01

I'm totally situation C.

Why tell our daughters to reach for the stars, that they can be whatever they want to be in life and then melt away our own self worth. Not on my watch, I'm in a very equal, happy relationship with hubby. And yes, he's so highly capable, he does his own washing too. (MN gasp!)

PostOpOp · 09/08/2023 00:06

In sweeping terms, OP, you're right. Obviously there are individuals who are fine, but as a general trend, yes, women are fucked. It's further compounded by being told we're equal. We're very often not, in the eyes of the men we marry. They don't say it out loud, but over time we learn that actions speak louder then words anyway.

I'm teaching DD already not to ever give up work AND that relationships need to be equal. I'm teaching DS this too, tailored differently. Because no matter how emotionally mature or free you are, if you do not have an income, you a) can't get your freedom and b) cannot choose to stay in a relationship if you can't choose to leave it. Men should be taught this and society should be bombarded with the message. It would actually make it easier to weed out some of the abusers, because what sort of man who knows his life partner can't chose to leave him would be happy with that? It doesn't mean no SAHMs. It means that those who do that have pension contributions from their joint account, at least.

Merryoldgoat · 09/08/2023 00:07

I am in situation C.

I think it’s untrue that it’s impossible to tell what men are like.

Very few I’ve known from a long time ago have changed in any material way.

If women didn’t keep allowing men to treat them so badly from the start and moved on before getting caught up they’d do much better.

My husband is kind generous and an excellent dad and these qualities were apparent from very early on.

Feliciacat · 09/08/2023 00:09

I’m facing infertility and I must say that a large thing I draw comfort from is not having to juggle childcare with work. I do think it’s very hard for women to be mothers and have careers. I’m not saying people shouldn’t have both but I do agree with OP that women are damned whatever they do!

Orders76 · 09/08/2023 00:10

Hmm it's a good question.
I hope I've taught my daughter...

God the first few years are tough and even people who love each other argue
But healthy arguing and getting through that means that when you're 10+ you get to see the best of us again

Original poster
doireallywanttostartthisnow · 09/08/2023 00:15

@Merryoldgoat I disagree, I think it's a different kind of victim blaming. Essentially, being two professionals living in a house, you compromise very little. You are equal in terms of power etc. Add a child which only one side is responsible for growing and feeding, one who has to stay up all night whilst the other has to return to work after two weeks. You take one half away from the work place for nine months and force her (by association) to become part of the domestic sphere and then send her back to the workplace feeling unsupported, out of the loop and emotional. The two people have completely different experiences! Do you not see how this temporary imbalance of power creates a legacy and an instability? 70% of my friends I would say saw very little in terms of warning signs about their children's fathers.

OP posts:
Zipidydodah · 09/08/2023 00:17

How about option D where women aren’t ‘victims’ and ensure they have an equal partnership with their husband. They secure a well paid professional career first. They only stay with partners that prove over time that they can contribute fully and equally to household chores and finances. Then they discuss AT LENGTH with their partner BEFORE they get married let alone pregnant his finances and workload will be split and do not go ahead with marriage/ pregnancy unless they are met with unequivocal enthusiastic agreement to this equal role. It really isn’t difficult.

Zipidydodah · 09/08/2023 00:18

*how not his

Sceptre86 · 09/08/2023 00:20

It doesn't have to be this way. My dh paid for childcare when I went part time. My job has a ceiling in terms of wages which I had already hit, his doesn't. He facilitated my return to work by wfh two days a week and taking care of our children every Saturday. No clubs or hobbies here, he supported me because he knew working was integral to me. He puts our family first. We discussed this before kids. My wages paid the bills and his the mortgage. I now am freelance and he supported me to take the plunge. Good men do exist. I will empower my girls to know their own self worth. I didn't settle for less and wouldn't have got with just anyone because I desperately wanted kids. It's easier to have standards when you know your own self worth and have something to fall back on be it a good wage or family support.

It isn't easy being a working mum but earning your own money gives you self respect and so many more choices.

Sceptre86 · 09/08/2023 00:21

@Zipidydodah , I agree.

Zipidydodah · 09/08/2023 00:22

Sceptre86

indeed 👏

Original poster
doireallywanttostartthisnow · 09/08/2023 00:22

@Zipidydodah if it really isn't that difficult how come there is a bazillion threads by women on MN who have been either shafted or feel trapped?
I'm in situation C and it's not easy. Yes I pay my own bills etc but each night I'm alone and have to make every decision without anyone to consult. Not even anyone to make me a cup of tea when I'm sick. So women now have the freedom to leave unhappy marriages, but it doesn't make it easy.
Your solution would work if fertility didn't deplete rapidly for women over 35.

OP posts: