Women end up being losers no matter what

[doireallywanttostartthisnow]

Situation A: well educated woman meets man, marries, has child, feels overwhelmed by childcare cost/ options, gives up work, has another child, finds it hard to get back into wink place now eldest is at school, needs to be around for the month of half days, sick days, strike days, nursery closures and so as not to interrupt husbands career so he can earn more 'family money'. Husband ends up resentful, doesn't pay into pension for dear wife, moans about work stress that she doesn't understand. Wife feels too belittled to return to work or goes into something way below her level of experience. She used to be a marketing manager but now she works at a local toy shop as it's shorter hours and flexible (but MW and business may go bust/ no room for progression).

Situation B: same woman does not give up career, goes back after mat leave, faces judgement, works for free due to childcare costs until eldest is 3. Uses holiday club and wraparound childcare. Feels like a hamster on a wheel and knows none of the parents names as she's never in the after school park club. Still has to deal with all the house/ life admin. Resents husband. Leaves the bastard. Now officially does everything alone (woohoo?). Ex DH pays a minimal amount which only covers some childcare. Woman may be financially better off but is exhausted and also faces judgement due to leaving the marriage.

The problem is that hardly anyone is in situation C meaning happy, less stressed, supported, financially independent and in a truly equal marriage. I know about three women who are.
So what do we teach our daughters? Don't have kids? Choose better men? So few men appear to be bellends when we first meet them at art school? None of them appear to be moany, vindictive, controlling, feeble, martyr like or miserly?
How do we ever move on from the fate of being either supported ('kept') or independent ('exhausted')?

Absolutely this - this is our set up and it works very well.

I do think that’s a massive part of it.

FIL always made sure he and MIL had equal ‘spends’ even though he was the much higher earner. Her Wednesday night book club was untouchable in terms of overtime or him going out with his mates - exact same as his Monday. When she was part time for childcare reasons they paid into a pension for her. He also insisted she had £900, which was the equivalent of three months bills, in an account just in her name just in case he ever “suddenly turned into a dickhead” (his father was an alcoholic so he had a fear of that).

I think it’s no surprise that DH and BIL are exactly the same. They’ve had that modelled to them and it was totally natural when I gave up work to care for our youngest DD (due to her high care) full time for DH to say “right, how much do we need to put in your pension and which account are we transferring your spends into?”

I hope it’s not only shown our girls how it should be, but especially our boys.

@fullbloom87 “Your husband was lazy and useless because you did everything.
His role as a 'man' was completely redundant.what was the point in him if he couldn't even provide for his wife and child. Jesus”

You read that I divorced him, right? 🤣

How did I do “everything”? I said that I didn’t do his laundry, or appoint myself family cook, or take over his “family stuff”. Not for me the role of buying his mother’s birthday gift. Anyone from his family asking me social stuff got directed to him. As I wasn’t cooking for him, I didn’t even shop for him. I mean if I was in the shop and he texted me to collect him a pizza please, I didn’t reply, “fuck you” - but I certainly didn’t give a second thought to whether there was food in that he wanted. Obviously not from day one 🤣 But once his utter laziness surfaced - because no, I wouldn’t have been with him if he had been like that from the start.

And no - do not blame me for him doing nothing re our child. It wasn’t because I did everything. That was not my fault. That was all on him. FWIW, it took us years to conceive and he talked about what he wanted to do with our child, and all his family told me he was just the best uncle when his nephews were young. And he was the hands on swing friends’ kids around the garden type.

He did contribute 50% of all our costs - we had a very similar income. So I don’t know why you say he didn’t “provide”.

My point was that I don’t recognise OP’s premise that you have A or B and get shafted either way.

You can have the lazy husband (and then cheating in my case, but honestly I was on the verge of going over the laziness) and walk away and not be shafted.

I agree what was the point of him, hence the divorce. I don’t agree with the way that you write like his failings were my fault.

Reject the above and find a man who will accept his 50% of the labour of child care. Don't settle for less, it's the way of the world now.

You chose a man who could only provide 50% when you needed him the most (ie after having a baby) I'm not surprised you did nothing for him as you had no incentive to be a 'wife' as he wasn't acting like a proper husband,
Not your fault you just made a bad choice.
A man who expects his wife to contribute 50% after they've just given birth to their child is a huge red flag for me. Plus an exhausted wife trying to juggle everything (due to his own making!) probably doesn't want sex as often,
He sounds like a complete man child, if he was raised better he would have taken better care of you and maybe you'd have wanted to iron his shirts and make him dinner, hope his life is awful stupid bastardi.

It's still coming out of the household income, regardless of whose pay packet it's coming out of.

@CrazyFrogDingDing

Exactly. Why should a mother with a young baby have to work for her salary to be swallowed up by childcare just so she can get access to some money.
No way I'd work to just have the childcare covered. With the right career skills and training taking a couple of years out really won't make a difference to your personal financial outcome. Just got to be smart and not be at the mercy of some bullshit corporate office job.

@fullbloom87 “You chose a man who could only provide 50% when you needed him the most (ie after having a baby) I'm not surprised you did nothing for him as you had no incentive to be a 'wife' as he wasn't acting like a proper husband”

🤣 I’m laughing to myself that you’re so far off base that I’m going to defend him! (partially 😉)

”Only 50%”? Did you miss the part where I said I love my job? I had a great year of mat leave, but I never wanted to be a SAHP. He wouldn’t have batted at eyelid if I had wanted to be. His second wife is now a SAHM to her (not their) 2 teens because he’s happy to “act like a proper husband” 🤣 It works for them cos she’s a Mrs Hinch follower type who likes shining his taps daily and driving in the white Range Rover he pays for (not joking).

He had his faults, but a failure to provide materially was never one of them, or failure to be prepared to be the “breadwinner”. I didn’t want that. And he never complained about my work choices.

But, he was lazy. I was resentful when it was domestic stuff, and sad and disappointed when it was child-related. Years of trying to conceive and I’d imagined us going on park trips together, or coming home to find he’d baked a birthday cake for me as an activity with our son. When I was pregnant, he sounded keen about having a 1/2 day every Wednesday to be 1:1, cutting his hours. We were in a social group where 3 friends with a child already did “daddy days” and when I was pregnant he’d chat with them about joining in. He then… just never did. Child arrived, and he overnight became that man who leaves the house without a changing bag. “Can’t hear” the cries at night. Called his mum to come over the first time I went out. I didn’t take over, I didn’t criticise his different way, was not in any kind of confidence crisis. He was just lazy. And I didn’t see it coming.

I wasn’t shafted - as per OP’s A and B scenarios. Because I was able to say, “fuck this” and jettison the deadweight.

Maybe before my experience I’d have joined the posters here saying it’s simple, you just have to choose a man who’ll share the load. I really really really thought I had - and I’m not stupid.

This is all 16 years ago for me now, and I’m sat here shaking my head cos I don’t ever think about that time now… but thinking back I still can’t get my head round it. He really was the man everyone meant it when they said, “oh he’s going to be such a hands on dad”, and had a peer group that supported that.

Sit' A is so close to my own situation that it actually feels good to have it recognised.
My generation were told we could 'have it all' career and family; what a load of bollocks.
I've actually asked my husband would he be disappointed if our DD grew up to have my life, but I already know he would be.

@Testina Yes!
My DH wanted children soooo much more than I did, yet you wouldn't know that from his lack of involvement. He wanted a second and seemed genuinely bemused when I said 'but you don't father the one you have.'
Yet we are still together as I'm trapped by circumstance.

You can do all of that and then have a man completely change and/ or leave when children arrive.

I’m gonna be that lone parent here:
Unable to work due to PTSD (partially caused by DD's father).
I win.
I have been there for everything for DD, didn't miss a bit. Every single day, every single night. Every milestone. Every event.
Every need met, every single day.
Every illness.
Paid for every single thing she ever needed myself from nappies to uniforms.
Did all lockdown home schooling when most didn’t bother.
Paid for Tutor for 11+, sat there during.
DD passed and got into Grammar school of her choice. Attended year 6 leavers assembly.
New uniform sorted, map of school fully explained, which buses and when rehearsed.

On paper I am excelling in lone parenthood, but as the best of us know, it's horrendously hard and every tiny little win along the way comes at the expense of heart ache, crying only when you really are actually alone for a few minutes then popping back into normal mode, always putting yourself last and looked down on by every working Mum, especially the ones in your own family.
If I can "win" just now and then, I know that others must be kicking dust over my efforts.
That's okay. I'd rather give everything I've got to always try so hard than slip into lazy complacency. I still have a little bit of life for myself so that's really something.

One thing I am not is a loser. I’m just not programmed that way. I never, ever give up on anything that's important to me. My instinct has always been to fight, and fight hard. It's served me well and keeps my backbone in place.
DD's absent father is the loser. He's actually pathetic in every sense of the word. Makes me shudder when I try to imagine his sad little irresponsible life as a parent to two kids he doesn't see. He always worried he'd become like his Dad, but he did, exactly. No point feeling sorry for someone who brought it all on himself.

I am a lone parent. I am not a loser and certainly haven’t felt like one. Though my kids are older. One is an adult at uni (currently home and working) one is a teenager but has autism. He is mainly independent.

Exh was actually a good husband for almost 15 years. He had a mental health crisis, became paranoid and controlling then violent And never really recovered.

I have always built my career. The split and divorce was hard on us. But I had enough to buy a home, take time off when we moved.

I never found it overwhelming. Or felt like a loser. My career continued to grow. I earn very good money. I never found working and keeping on top of housework particularly hard. Yes we had slow cooker meals a lot. Or more recently hello fresh or similar.

I have a dp who doesn’t live here but will come round and help ds when he gets in from school if I am not here. Or put some dinner on. I work from home if I need to.

My Dad will come round if I need him to. Maybe a couple of times a year. Then a couple of times he will arrange something with the kids and take them away. They are very close to him.

In some ways it’s not been an easy road. I have to take medication every day for anxiety. Had therapy to help get over what happened with exh. My mum died just over a year ago and that’s been guy wrenching my hard.

But I have never felt overwhelmed by the housework or washing or having a job as well. Now the kids are older they both pitch in. The work I put into my career in my 20s is paying off massively. Most of my peers that are my age and have my level of experience have young kids, so are happy taking it easier at work where I am ramping up. My earnings have massively increased. My latest wage rise has been 20% and I am expecting a promotion in the next 12 months.

I love Dp and we have been together a few years now. But I do sometimes wonder what life would have been like if exh hadn’t had his mental health crisis. But I am really happy where I am. I have a day out with colleagues tomorrow, which I nervous about. And looking forward to it. I am always anxious leading up to going out to socialise. It’s one of the things I have to deal with. It’s also the reason I am awake. Dads picking the kids up tomorrow and taking them to the cost for a few days. I have AL for the rest of the week and me and dp will be joining them on Thursday.

On the whole. Life is good.

Woman is not very smart. She had another child when she was already overwhelmed and gave up work.

She was already in a vulnerable situation because of 1 child. Instead of trying to get back on her feet, she went and had another child.

What would I teach my daughter? Have just one child unless she had loads of money for a nanny/cleaner, so that way she doesn't compromise her career and doesn't become a domestic servant.

Just to let you know in case it makes you feel better but my DH didn't used to look after me when I was sick and was hopeless with any situation I was worried about, while expecting me to provide huge amounts of emotional support to him. It's actually much less tiring when he's away because someone complaining all the time or making more mess is much more exhausting than looking after myself/the children.

And you're absolutely right he wasn't like that when we met, he was lovely and supportive. It became far more obvious a) when we got married and b) when we had children.

I think there are many men that are lovely and supportive to their wives. My son is genuinely absolutely lovely to his girlfriend (I hope I have had some influence on that) but I also know a lot of men that just treat women as second class citizens.

We should teach our daughters to always earn their own money, never ever rely on someone else for the food on their table or the roof over their head. To ignore the marketing hype of marriage and happy ever after. To not waste money on the ridiculous rubbish that so many women seem to waste energy on. To not have children until they can afford them on their own.

In other words to work hard, choose a career they enjoy but that is also financially viable. To focus on finding a home of their own. To be no-one's fool.

I have a home, a career, a child (in my 40s), a pension, a happy fulfilled life. I chose not to marry. My ds is happy, secure, doing well, has a regular relationship with his father.

In my experience and what I see around me, most men have different priorities to most women, and do not want the same things in the long run which leads either to divorce or unhappiness (or both). Why go there in the first place?

That doesn't mean don't have relationships, just never place yourself in someone else's control.

The discussion before marriage is the easy part though, even if it is a lengthy one. It's the implementation of those agreed expectations that's tricky.

I agree with the OP. No amount of high paid professional job will be enough. My anecdata - only considering hetero relationships here - the 'higher' professional woman I know do not have equal relationships, eg. they still do the wife work. Generally, these woman are incredible though and have seemingly endless capacity to absorb responsibility. They are aware of the imbalance. I can't speak for very vulnerable very low income groups because I don't know anyone personally well enough to comment, but I suspect the situation is worse.

I would say that, for me, I can easily see the benefits of taking the primary role - I obviously find the imbalance annoying but I wouldn't choose to be born a boy and grow up a man.

Lots accept it before the baby arrives and many of these fail to deliver on their promises - that's the conundrum.

I married a man whose own DM worked full time and his dad did his share of household chores to support that. He grew up watching his mum build her career and his dad doing his share of childcare, cooking, and laundry etc.

I waited until my career was well established and childcare fees were easily affordable, my company had a generous maternity package and supportive of women when they returned. I was promoted whilst on mat leave with DC2.

DH considered my career as important as his, and when someone needed to be home with a sick DC, we’d just decide who could most easily stay at home that day. Often it was me going into work as I’m client facing and usually had client meetings. We’d both get up in the night if a child was sick - one would clean up and settle DC, the other would change bed sheets etc as necessary.

He looks after DC if I need to travel with work, does just as much driving to sports training and fixtures, most of the cooking, all the food shopping, all of the ironing. We have a cleaner for general house work. I do most of the life admin, dealing with house insurance, tradesmen, taking DC to the dentist, opticians, keeping on top of school e mails, making sure they have uniform, sports equipment etc. I sort out birthdays, holidays and Christmas.

Im now senior enough that I can WFH 3 days a week, more if necessary, my employer is very flexible and DC are old enough (secondary school) to get themselves about. But I probably do a bit more in terms of looking after them if they are ill (rarely these days), and being around in the school holidays because it’s easy when I can WFH.

I now earn 3 x DH’s salary, (it was the other way round when DC were small),he still earns a very good, City salary, but he’s certainly fully supported me being able to earn that.

B here!

My husband does a lot around the house, but the childcare, taking time off through school holidays and children’s sickness almost always falls to me. The children’s well-being largely falls to me. I also pay for the majority of things for them.

I’m very organised, capable and good at my job, but I’m honestly surprised I haven’t yet been managed out given how little I’m actually able to fully commit to my role.

This thread is a depressing read and does not reflect my relationship/situation at all. I earn roughly the same as my dh even though I work (semi) part time and he works full time. We can afford someone to clean the house once a week. DH does most of the laundry. We share the cooking. I do more of the childcare and mental load but dh job is mostly wfh so he has flexibility too and takes ds to medical and dental appointments on days i cannot. I do the shopping. But I like it and also love being with ds so very happy to be part time. ds is in nursery 4 days a week - sometimes i think this is too much and i worry about the long term impact but also want him to socialise (he has no cousins and no good friends near us with children of similar ages) and get the most from early years education so see it as learning for him rather than childcare. i am sure my career could be very different and more "successful" if i worked full time (in my job that means 70/80 hours a week+) but never saw my family. i don't want that life. i want time with my family and to get some sleep! i don't see working part time as a sacrifice but I feel financially comfortable with what I earn, and that's before taking dh's income into account. if we split then i would be screwed on the house - it would be shared but i put in far more. i have faith (maybe stupidly) that at the end of the day both dh and i want to leave as much as possible for ds. we are relatively frugal and our saving goal is to leave as much as possible to ds. we both agree that we want to help him in the future with a car, house, whatever we can give so it doesn't feel like there is my money or dh money but all is joint/family money and ultimately is for ds (and dd on the way). we have the benefit of both having savings, both having pensions and surplus each month, jointly and separately. my point i suppose is that if you get a reasonably well paying job you can be part time and not financially crippled. it's not impossible and if you want that for your own work life balance reasons then you won't feel hard done by if it goes wrong. if you are forced into it by circumstance of financial constraint and lack of other options etc then it's different. but it is possible to reduce working hours, take on more of the childcare and not left financially vulnerable or be frustrated with your situation. but importantly I should probably add we left having dc until later in life when we were financially stable and had established careers. it is a biological gamble, but waiting until late 30s and now pregnant at 40, has probably ensured that regardless of what happens to our relationship both of us, and most importantly, ds will be ok and able to lead fulfilling lives with relative financial comfort. some might think this is too old for children etc and I've seen this opinion voiced many times on MN but the otherside of it is that i don't recognise the issues on this thread. women shouldn't be forced to wait until they are at the end of child bearing years to have children but that's the sad reality of this not particularly fair world we live in. pick your poison- wait until you're almost too old to have dc and have financial stability but also possibly miss out on dgc, etc or have children younger and spend your peak working years struggling and not having the career you could have or wanted to have. another choice women probably have to worry about a lot more than men.

In both of those examples the problem is the man. We need to not accept that behaviour.

Yes my older teens(boy and girl) know not to give up work or depend on a partner in the future (health allowing). It’s something I feel really strongly about.

I have always worked and shared the mental load/childcare with my husband. Never ended up in the scenarios in the OP. I know we are in the minority though.

This kind of attitude by others irritates me so much. We also have an equal household and have done since day one. I cringe when women say how their husbands can’t use a washing machine or be trusted to dress their kids. Why???