Page 6 | Women end up being losers no matter what

FadeAwayAndRadiate · 09/08/2023 09:36

@Hufflepods

Alternative option. Woman picks a man to marry who shares her values, has children, even has long maternity leaves because she wants to, returns to work and splits childcare and housework 50:50, no guilt or mum shaming for working, enjoys having savings and expensive holidays, enjoys seeing her children develop in childcare, enjoys the appreciation shown by her partner.

🤦‍♀️ facepalm..

onefinemess · 09/08/2023 09:37

From an Environmental perspective 💯 you should not be encouraging your children to have any of their own.

Why on earth do you believe that women are being forced into some sort of win or lose situation?

Try standing in two different places at the same time, you can't, it's impossible. Same with career V family. It's one or the other. And that's not men's fault.

Nobody is forcing you to have children.

Nobody is forcing you to go to work.

Nobody is forcing you to not have children.

You make a choice. Otherwise you're saying what?, that a man MUST work full time for his paycheck, but YOU should be given sort of compensation or better terms because you have chosen to have a child, but still expect to get paid the same, to have the same chance at promotion? It's not possible. And it wouldn't be fair on the other women who have made different choices and go to work everyday.

I go to work everyday, should YOU get paid the same as me even though you aren't in work, and contribute nothing to the company?

Should you be considered for promotion even thought you literally haven't been at work for months and have no current experience?

If you want to have children then just have them. Nobody's stopping you. But don't blame others for your choice. It seems ridiculous to me that women are complaining about not being in two places at once. It makes us look like petulant toddlers.

You have all these standards for men to live up to, but criticise men for having standards of their own.

You/we/your children don't have to move on from anything. Stop blaming people because you can't have everything you want. It's certainly not up to men to provide anything for you or your daughters. It's not the 1950s anymore. If we don't want men "telling us what to do" then we can't tell them what to do either. So you can't expect any men (or woman) to pay for your desire to have children.

FadeAwayAndRadiate · 09/08/2023 09:39

newstart1234 · 09/08/2023 05:06

The discussion before marriage is the easy part though, even if it is a lengthy one. It's the implementation of those agreed expectations that's tricky.

I agree with the OP. No amount of high paid professional job will be enough. My anecdata - only considering hetero relationships here - the 'higher' professional woman I know do not have equal relationships, eg. they still do the wife work. Generally, these woman are incredible though and have seemingly endless capacity to absorb responsibility. They are aware of the imbalance. I can't speak for very vulnerable very low income groups because I don't know anyone personally well enough to comment, but I suspect the situation is worse.

I would say that, for me, I can easily see the benefits of taking the primary role - I obviously find the imbalance annoying but I wouldn't choose to be born a boy and grow up a man.

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100% THIS. ^ You can have all the discussions at great length' that you like with your husband before having kids, a house, a mortgage etc, but like fuck will most men stick to it. As a pp said, when kids come alone, he will suddenly start to realise he needs to go cycling with all the MAMILs every Saturday, and he needs to play golf every Sunday. He will suddenly need to work later at the office too, and have more and more meetings after work, and time away - seminars and courses that last 3-4 days.

I can't believe ANYONE actually believes having a chat with their man and telling him he needs to pull his weight and do 50/50 with the childcare and housework/gruntwork/life admin/domestic duties, means he will actually do it! LMFAO! Yeah, coz THAT's gonna happen! 😂

And as you say @newstart1234 the vast majority of women - professional and non-professional, and all those from GCSE educated to masters educated, will still be picking up the lion's share of the domestic duties/ childcare/ gruntwork/ life admin. (Especially once kids come along.) As I said, and as someone else said earlier, men are always suddenly busy with stuff outside the home when they're married and kids come along. No amount of discussion before is going to make ANY man do his share of life's duties and the childcare. Not. Gonna. Happen.

This 'women need to pick a better man' bullshine is just making me furious and also making me laugh - in equal measures. Ludicrous claptrap. Do the people spouting this really think women purposely pick shit men! Victim blaming much?!

geekone · 09/08/2023 09:40

Nope sorry I think maybe what people post about is doom and gloom but in general it’s much more even than that.

my child went to nursery at 6 months for 3 days a week paid for by us both. I went part time 4 days and husband works shifts so he did one day on his own and I did the other. Some weekends he was off some he wasn’t due to shifts. Some days when it was just the two of them and DS should have had nursery they had an extra daddy day.

DS is now 13 and child care is even. I am the default parent but we do try to explain to DS I don’t have to be.
we both have our skills we bring to child care and we both try to also work on our relationship. We have been together 25 years so doing something right.

We are not all shafted, sometimes we are shafted because we are too nice and naive and want to be loved sometimes we are shafted because they are bloody good at pretending to be upstanding nice men. Hopefully the majority of us are NOT shafted and so don’t have to post on here.

Takeabreather23 · 09/08/2023 09:53

@doireallywanttostartthisnow
tbh I think I’m leaning towards steering my Dd away from kids .
yes she makes her own choices of course but I’m teaching her there’s more to life .

Two older kids. Ds I’ve tried to teach them the responsibilities of kids and how they need to step up ( if that’s the choice they make ) it takes two to parent

WantingToEducate · 09/08/2023 09:59

I can’t believe how many women are saying they’d try and steer their children away from having children themselves.

That is so inappropriate. You have no place by putting pressure on your daughters not to have children because then they’ll get “shafted”. Whether they want to have children or not should not be dictated by the direction they were steered into by their parents.

By all means advise your daughters on how to protect themselves during motherhood if children are in their future, but you have no right to steer them in the direction that best pleases you.

Original poster

doireallywanttostartthisnow · 09/08/2023 10:07

@onefinemess it may come as a surprise but I also go to work every day. I don't expect anyone to pay for me to stay at home with children and I wouldn't want to do that either. Has it come at a price? Probably. I was in A&E in the Spring for tension headaches. My friend was hospitalised after having a mini stroke relating to hypertension. We are both single parents. I think this modern life is too much for single parents on low income with little support and full time jobs. Add in a child with disabilities or mental health needs and it's soon impossible.
So no I don't believe there is a sort of feminist nirvana where women have it all. I could have been naive when I had children but so were most of the men out there who have managed to walk away with little or no consequences.

OP posts:

SueVineer · 09/08/2023 10:26

doireallywanttostartthisnow · 08/08/2023 23:34

Situation A: well educated woman meets man, marries, has child, feels overwhelmed by childcare cost/ options, gives up work, has another child, finds it hard to get back into wink place now eldest is at school, needs to be around for the month of half days, sick days, strike days, nursery closures and so as not to interrupt husbands career so he can earn more 'family money'. Husband ends up resentful, doesn't pay into pension for dear wife, moans about work stress that she doesn't understand. Wife feels too belittled to return to work or goes into something way below her level of experience. She used to be a marketing manager but now she works at a local toy shop as it's shorter hours and flexible (but MW and business may go bust/ no room for progression).

Situation B: same woman does not give up career, goes back after mat leave, faces judgement, works for free due to childcare costs until eldest is 3. Uses holiday club and wraparound childcare. Feels like a hamster on a wheel and knows none of the parents names as she's never in the after school park club. Still has to deal with all the house/ life admin. Resents husband. Leaves the bastard. Now officially does everything alone (woohoo?). Ex DH pays a minimal amount which only covers some childcare. Woman may be financially better off but is exhausted and also faces judgement due to leaving the marriage.

The problem is that hardly anyone is in situation C meaning happy, less stressed, supported, financially independent and in a truly equal marriage. I know about three women who are.
So what do we teach our daughters? Don't have kids? Choose better men? So few men appear to be bellends when we first meet them at art school? None of them appear to be moany, vindictive, controlling, feeble, martyr like or miserly?
How do we ever move on from the fate of being either supported ('kept') or independent ('exhausted')?

I’m a single mum and to me the answer is that men need to be forced to properly contribute to their children’s upbringing. If they have assets and are not paying sufficiently, their assets should be taken. This should be regardless of marital status- you should not be permitted to impoverish your own children because you didn’t marry their mother.

tbh I am a higher earning professional and ex gives me a negligible amount. I don’t really care because we have enough and he is at least there for my kids. But it is extremely difficult to do a full time professional job as a single parent.

SueVineer · 09/08/2023 10:35

doireallywanttostartthisnow · 09/08/2023 00:22

@Zipidydodah if it really isn't that difficult how come there is a bazillion threads by women on MN who have been either shafted or feel trapped?
I'm in situation C and it's not easy. Yes I pay my own bills etc but each night I'm alone and have to make every decision without anyone to consult. Not even anyone to make me a cup of tea when I'm sick. So women now have the freedom to leave unhappy marriages, but it doesn't make it easy.
Your solution would work if fertility didn't deplete rapidly for women over 35.

the evidence on fertility isn’t clear. Having children when older does definitely benefit women- you can be established in your career and be financially secure. I had mine in late 30s early 40s which definitely helped. I’m happy as a single mum - it’s hard at times but satisfying. I definitely encourage my dds to have their own kids.

SueVineer · 09/08/2023 10:38

WandaWonder · 09/08/2023 06:44

Yes women have choices, they need to own their choices

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A man who doesn’t step up after children isn’t anything to do with women’s choices. I know many people who had this in mind when they started out but often things change after the reality of kids

clarebear111 · 09/08/2023 10:44

sadaboutmycat · 09/08/2023 07:05

My husband had all of those qualities too. Married, business together, three children. Great life in every way!
Except when my father died, and it became apparent that there was no family money, he literally ran off with a very wealthy friend of mine who was married to an awful man.
It had all been lies and an act, chasing the money.
Sociopaths and psychopaths hide their true selves very well.

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Good grief, what a shock that must have been. People can be so unpredictable. I hope you and your DC are ok. I’d say you’re better off without such a charlatan in your home but it must take time to see things like that.

Takeabreather23 · 09/08/2023 10:48

@WantingToEducate
my primary age dd has went from wanting 10 children to saying maybe I won’t have any
I've went along with both .

I am not telling her she had to give me grand kids because she doesn’t and yes kids give you a lot of pleasure no love like it abs family is important ,,,, but the world changed its expensive crazy and kids deserve better than a mum struggling because of some crap man .

I hope my dc choose wisely that’s all you can do
no pressure but def not saying to any of my children they need to have dc

WantingToEducate · 09/08/2023 11:00

Takeabreather23 · 09/08/2023 10:48

@WantingToEducate
my primary age dd has went from wanting 10 children to saying maybe I won’t have any
I've went along with both .

I am not telling her she had to give me grand kids because she doesn’t and yes kids give you a lot of pleasure no love like it abs family is important ,,,, but the world changed its expensive crazy and kids deserve better than a mum struggling because of some crap man .

I hope my dc choose wisely that’s all you can do
no pressure but def not saying to any of my children they need to have dc

You literally said you were leaning towards
steering your daughter away from having children.

Thepeopleversuswork · 09/08/2023 11:10

WantingToEducate · 09/08/2023 09:59

I can’t believe how many women are saying they’d try and steer their children away from having children themselves.

That is so inappropriate. You have no place by putting pressure on your daughters not to have children because then they’ll get “shafted”. Whether they want to have children or not should not be dictated by the direction they were steered into by their parents.

By all means advise your daughters on how to protect themselves during motherhood if children are in their future, but you have no right to steer them in the direction that best pleases you.

I don't think anyone is suggesting steering their children away from having children. They are pointing out that having children is a risk to your financial health and strongly advising them, if they do have children, not to expect anyone else to support them and to put their financial house in order accordingly.

That doesn't seem controversial to me, it's just good planning.

Anklespraying · 09/08/2023 11:17

WhateverMate · 08/08/2023 23:56

Situation B: same woman does not give up career, goes back after mat leave, faces judgement, works for free due to childcare costs until eldest is 3.

How is she working for free?

Surely both parents split the childcare cost?

Agree this is silly.

Faces judgement! I see it is still fashionable to spend your time worrying what the "neighbours" might think. It's like Jane Austen land here.

crazeekat · 09/08/2023 11:19

Nevermay · 08/08/2023 23:43

my life - single, asexual, no relationships ever, several children by arrangement with "sperm donors" - foreign men I met at university, men who were going back to their own countries and intended to be untraceable - also through adoption.

Worked full time and borrowed to pay child care and mortgage, we were absolutely brassic but had a great time, I frequently couldn't afford 3 meals a day for muyself, although the children never went without food, got very good at patching up clothes and finding free events and activities! all holidays were camping by public transport - worked in a school so off work at the same time as the children, I was the boss, no other adult in the house disagreeing with me, or criticising me or making work for me.

FF to today, mortgage paid, one child married and living with wife, two others graduated and working but still living at home, for free, no rent while they save up.

Very happy and loving family ( it is just us, I have no other relatives but many good friends) have kept my career going, am financially comfortable, now we take holidays abroad! And have loved raising a family and have no regrets at all about anything

This woman has never been a loser

love this, good for u 🩵

Errolwasahero · 09/08/2023 11:39

Loving all these wonderful stories of lives that have gone to plan and women who have followed successful careers with happy, well-adjusted families

vivainsomnia · 09/08/2023 11:39

A man who doesn’t step up after children isn’t anything to do with women’s choices. I know many people who had this in mind when they started out but often things change after the reality of kids
There are also many women who believed in fantasyland. Staying at home with beautiful naturally well behaved kids, a husband working working coming home right away with a big smile on his face, picking up the kids, suggesting wife enjoys the evening for herself, cooking her a nice meal.

That might be a bit extreme but frankly, some mums here come over as quite lazy and expecting their husband to take over the household duties as soon as he is home because she needs a break.

There are lazy husbands and lazy wives.

KimberleyClark · 09/08/2023 11:42

SueVineer · 09/08/2023 10:38

A man who doesn’t step up after children isn’t anything to do with women’s choices. I know many people who had this in mind when they started out but often things change after the reality of kids

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It is when they have more children with a man who didn't step up after the first.

Daddybegood · 09/08/2023 11:44

onefinemess · 09/08/2023 09:37

From an Environmental perspective 💯 you should not be encouraging your children to have any of their own.

Why on earth do you believe that women are being forced into some sort of win or lose situation?

Try standing in two different places at the same time, you can't, it's impossible. Same with career V family. It's one or the other. And that's not men's fault.

Nobody is forcing you to have children.

Nobody is forcing you to go to work.

Nobody is forcing you to not have children.

You make a choice. Otherwise you're saying what?, that a man MUST work full time for his paycheck, but YOU should be given sort of compensation or better terms because you have chosen to have a child, but still expect to get paid the same, to have the same chance at promotion? It's not possible. And it wouldn't be fair on the other women who have made different choices and go to work everyday.

I go to work everyday, should YOU get paid the same as me even though you aren't in work, and contribute nothing to the company?

Should you be considered for promotion even thought you literally haven't been at work for months and have no current experience?

If you want to have children then just have them. Nobody's stopping you. But don't blame others for your choice. It seems ridiculous to me that women are complaining about not being in two places at once. It makes us look like petulant toddlers.

You have all these standards for men to live up to, but criticise men for having standards of their own.

You/we/your children don't have to move on from anything. Stop blaming people because you can't have everything you want. It's certainly not up to men to provide anything for you or your daughters. It's not the 1950s anymore. If we don't want men "telling us what to do" then we can't tell them what to do either. So you can't expect any men (or woman) to pay for your desire to have children.

Amen to that👏

philautia · 09/08/2023 11:48

It's not a case of either or though. It's not A or B and very occasionally C. There are lots of other choices.

Why is paying for childcare the sole responsibility of the woman in both A and B? Is your view clouded by your own experience?

With my first baby, I went back to work full time and my partner cut down his work by two days a week to care for her. With my second, it will be the other way around.

Hufflepods · 09/08/2023 12:16

@FadeAwayAndRadiate This 'women need to pick a better man' bullshine is just making me furious and also making me laugh - in equal measures. Ludicrous claptrap. Do the people spouting this really think women purposely pick shit men! Victim blaming much?!

It’s not victim blaming though because you aren’t a victim! If you have a shit life with a shit partner who doesn’t respect you, you still aren’t a victim. You can choose the life you want.
Stop pretending all women are in this weird hostage situation where ‘I can't believe ANYONE actually believes having a chat with their man and telling him he needs to pull his weight and do 50/50 with the childcare and housework/gruntwork/life admin/domestic duties, means he will actually do it! LMFAO! Yeah, coz THAT's gonna happen! 😂’

Honestly that’s so depressing I don’t even know where to start. Plenty of men don’t need to be told! Misery loves company but you’re doing yourself and your children a disservice by perpetuating this nonsense that all women live like this.

Howandwhy · 09/08/2023 12:38

KimberleyClark · 09/08/2023 11:42

It is when they have more children with a man who didn't step up after the first.

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If that same woman always wanted more than one child and marries or moves on to another man hoping that he will stick to his word, be a good partner and husband and not suddenly change when she's pregnant/has their child, she's then insulted for having multiple "baby daddies". I know many women who wanted more than one child, know that their husband/partner is no good (true colours appeared after child being born, well into the marriage) but have been determined to have all their children with said man, even after they have split up. This is because of victim blaming. They do not want the stigma of being a single mother with more than one baby daddy. Women are indeed blamed for "not choosing better" based on the behaviour of the absentee father/ useless father/husband. It is victim blaming. You can be a victim and overcome at the same time.

Nevermay · 09/08/2023 12:39

doireallywanttostartthisnow · 09/08/2023 10:07

@onefinemess it may come as a surprise but I also go to work every day. I don't expect anyone to pay for me to stay at home with children and I wouldn't want to do that either. Has it come at a price? Probably. I was in A&E in the Spring for tension headaches. My friend was hospitalised after having a mini stroke relating to hypertension. We are both single parents. I think this modern life is too much for single parents on low income with little support and full time jobs. Add in a child with disabilities or mental health needs and it's soon impossible.
So no I don't believe there is a sort of feminist nirvana where women have it all. I could have been naive when I had children but so were most of the men out there who have managed to walk away with little or no consequences.

AandE with a tension headache?

anyway, I have said it before and I will say it again, if you don't enjoy children, motherhood isn't for you - if you do enjoy children, be a mother and enjoy and appreciate it!

Being a single mum on a low income was fantastic, I loved it.

Fathers dont "walk away with no consequences" - they walk away and miss out on what is best in life - and if raising children isn't what you personally think is the best hting in life -DON'T HAVE CHILDREN!

Really really it is as simple as that -love raising children, or don't raise children.

I don't understand women who choose to have children then moan about them

WantingToEducate · 09/08/2023 12:55

Nevermay · 09/08/2023 12:39

AandE with a tension headache?

anyway, I have said it before and I will say it again, if you don't enjoy children, motherhood isn't for you - if you do enjoy children, be a mother and enjoy and appreciate it!

Being a single mum on a low income was fantastic, I loved it.

Fathers dont "walk away with no consequences" - they walk away and miss out on what is best in life - and if raising children isn't what you personally think is the best hting in life -DON'T HAVE CHILDREN!

Really really it is as simple as that -love raising children, or don't raise children.

I don't understand women who choose to have children then moan about them

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That’s a bit drastic….we can love our children and still think they’re an absolute nightmare at times 😂😂

Just like we can love our husbands but still think they’re shitty from time to time 😂

Nobody is perfect - including our children!