Women end up being losers no matter what

[doireallywanttostartthisnow]

Situation A: well educated woman meets man, marries, has child, feels overwhelmed by childcare cost/ options, gives up work, has another child, finds it hard to get back into wink place now eldest is at school, needs to be around for the month of half days, sick days, strike days, nursery closures and so as not to interrupt husbands career so he can earn more 'family money'. Husband ends up resentful, doesn't pay into pension for dear wife, moans about work stress that she doesn't understand. Wife feels too belittled to return to work or goes into something way below her level of experience. She used to be a marketing manager but now she works at a local toy shop as it's shorter hours and flexible (but MW and business may go bust/ no room for progression).

Situation B: same woman does not give up career, goes back after mat leave, faces judgement, works for free due to childcare costs until eldest is 3. Uses holiday club and wraparound childcare. Feels like a hamster on a wheel and knows none of the parents names as she's never in the after school park club. Still has to deal with all the house/ life admin. Resents husband. Leaves the bastard. Now officially does everything alone (woohoo?). Ex DH pays a minimal amount which only covers some childcare. Woman may be financially better off but is exhausted and also faces judgement due to leaving the marriage.

The problem is that hardly anyone is in situation C meaning happy, less stressed, supported, financially independent and in a truly equal marriage. I know about three women who are.
So what do we teach our daughters? Don't have kids? Choose better men? So few men appear to be bellends when we first meet them at art school? None of them appear to be moany, vindictive, controlling, feeble, martyr like or miserly?
How do we ever move on from the fate of being either supported ('kept') or independent ('exhausted')?

I am also in situation C. Though totally by luck not judgement.

I'd advise any woman not to give up work unless you have a rock solid independent income or are a high enough earner in a job that's in demand enough that you're always going to be able to return to it

I'd also advise any woman not to have kids with someone who doesn't 100% pull their weight with everything house / chore / pet related.

I'd advise shared paternity leave so they're not the default parent and can truly see the others perspective of being a stay at home parent or the sole earner.

Lastly I'd advise before any discussions about kids to sit down and go through all the practical details. How will finances work if one of you goes part time? What are your expectations about who does night feeds if you get a bad sleeper and one of you is working and the other is off? Who does housework when one of you is on maternity? How much free time will you both have for hobbies? Of course this won't weadle out all those men who promise the earth and don't deliver. But it would highlight the men who are like 'of course you're still going to be paying 50% of all the bills when you're on mat leave', 'looking after a baby is so easy so you'll be doing all the housework' and 'I can't let the lads down so I'll be out at the football every single weekend and out getting passed 3x a week' and 'I'm so tired after work that I need to relax at evenings and weekends so I'm not 'helping with the baby etc etc. One of the things our nct class was asked to discuss was how you'd handle if one of you came back from work and had had a terrible day at work and were completely knackered and drained and really needed some space and the one on mat leave hadn't had time for a cup of tea or a shower because the baby had been crying for hours, and you both felt like you were going to explode. By then it's too late though, this kind of thing needs to be discussed before people make the decisions to have kids

We go on holiday this week and I was at work today and a colleague asked how much of a nightmare packing for 3 dc is… I said I checked they had enough outfits out on their beds but dh packed dc suitcases. Colleagues were horrified I’d allowed him such responsibility. We seem unusual but I have low tolerance for incompetence and expect us to share dc responsibility. Dh wfh did shift the balance but it was fairly even before. I’m amazed how rare this is seen to be. Mentioning dh is in charge of clothes/bedding washing etc meets with genuine shock and exclamation that their dh won’t do that. Baffling.

@Zipidydodah also household chores and finances are simple pre children. I don't know one childless couple that row over those topics (obviously they do over others) but it seems chores and money become particular trigger points for couples with children.

We teach our girls to go for Option D, as @Zipidydodah suggested. That involves being ambitious, working hard at school, aiming for well paid jobs and not taking shit from suboptimal men or women.

Situation D: have a child with a disability or medical condition that requires one to one care and lots of medical appointments. You’re fucked, no one can afford the cost of child care if you can find it, or time off from work to attend appointments. This will probably continue as your child becomes an adult, but if not transferring from being a carer to finding paid employment is a nightmare and there is very little support to do this. Add in elderly parents and a family who think you’re available so you can deal with that too. No surprise that most carers are women.

Completely agree.. I've currently actually got my head in my hands in despair with a thread I'm reading over on CHAT at the moment ... I have had to HIDE IT. There's a woman who's got three kids under 8 and she's a full time mum (her husband was fine with this - and also wanted all 3 kids.) She does absolutely everything - looks after the kids, does all their housework, domestic duties, general grunt work, cooking, washing etc etc........

Her husband works and does absolutely naff-all in the house or to help with the kids (like most of them don't.) And despite the encouragement to have kids and be a SAHM, he's actually now demanding she goes out to work to get more money in because he 'can't afford the house' instead of him actually pulling his finger out, and trying to earn more, or getting a better job.

He's trying to force her out to work and if she refuses he will sell up. Stupid idea as private rent will cost more! And if she does go out to work, we all know 100% that she will still be doing absolutely every fucking thing in the house ... All domestic duties, life admin, childcare, school run, all the grunt work etc.. And most of the money she gets will just go to the childcare and nursery fees and the costs associated with going to work.

He will probably spend the extra money HE is saving, on his selfish self-centred ass. Jeeeez! Women get fucked over left, right and centre. But what's really depressing me is that it's usually men doing it, but on that thread - it's women are doing it as well. Clearly bitter and projecting, because THEY have to go out to work!!!!

My daughter is 11 and I have already been taking to her about this. We must educate the next generation and make sure they know the reality of having a family.

My sons are younger and I’m starting to explain the consequences of being a man child.

@ParadiseZity have you not been on MN long? Most of the women on here did all of those things. I have two degrees, didn't stop me from having two kids with a dud. You know the way that you spoke about the sort of mother you were going to be before you became one, and how different that is to the mother you've become? Well that's the same as how lots of men tell you that they're going to be a caring, responsive and supportive partner and father when the baby comes along. And guess what? They change their mind! Suddenly they do very much mind missing cycling every Sunday and they actually don't wake up for night feeds as it's 'pointless' because the baby just wants the mum and they actually can't be assed to take little Jonny to sing and sign at the library on a Tuesday and just sit them in front of Peppa. Shocker, men lie!

You put it better than I was going too

There are no easy answers, especially when you have children. In my opinion, the most important thing is to have the ability to earn your own income. And to pick who you have your children with as carefully as you can. Relying on someone else to provide for you is a risky business and is rarely unconditional. I think all you can do is be honest with your DD and let her plough her own furrow.

Failing that, you could have the good sense to be the only child of extremely wealthy parents…

I'm in C. Earn about 4-5 times what my partner does.

We share childcare responsibilities and house work equally. He is supportive. He is very resistant to ever doing more than his fair share though. The world assumes I am the default parent. He isn't very good at picking up the mental load

If the situation was reversed, I would probably be doing much more childcare responsibilities and cutting down on work (A). He's not happy to support, he is happy to share but very careful to not do extra. I think it's probably male pride. But if I was earning less, I would be thinking about the team rather than what's equal.

@WandaWonder do you not see how many women refer to childcare as coming out of their wages not 'family money' where do you think they get that idea from? And do you think 'D'H challenges them and says 'don't worry dear, let's go 50/50' or do they just say 'yes well £1490 is a lot, maybe you don't need to go back until the free hours kick in?'

If the woman earns more they might but be able to call the shots but maybe they should be able to

I've just come from that thread and thought the exact same thing! Why are posters on that thread so horrible as well! SAHM are so demonised on here.
Depressing.
Did you see the thread about every woman having a secret stash of cash to run away with the kids if things go tits up?
I found it really depressing.

This is the thing, as a woman who is the bigger earner. I pay more for childcare.

My salary takes us up a bracket away from support. He contributes as if he gets the government support, I cover the rest.

If my salary was lower, I can totally imagine it would be seen as fair that I covered childcare because it let me work

It's fortunate if you do not want, and never had children, because children are really the common factor in both A & B.

I'm honestly not trying to be sanctimonious, but contemplating both scenario genuinely played a part in helping me realise why I intrinsically knew children just were not for me.

If there are no children on the scene, there is no need to give up work to provide childcare, no resentment at 'working for free' to pay for childcare costs, and any relationship is an order of magnitude more easy to end and completely untangle, because after the financials are sorted there is absolutely nothing tying you to the ex, and you have never sacrificed or diminished your ability to be completely independent anyway.

I'm in that latter position myself, which just confirms for me that I was correct all along in thinking that children would add a completely undesirable degree of complexity to my life, and I'd no doubt regret the decision had I 'caved in'. Again, I was fortunate to actually have a partner who felt the same way I did and had no desire to start a family, but then, I had control over that as well because I could have refused to enter into a relationship with anyone who felt differently.

So yes, my answer to your question would definitely be 'don't have kids'.

I saw this post too.

I was really concerned for the poster, who seems to me to be in a very vulnerable position, given she is completely dependent on someone who appears to be unable to provide for her. It’s exactly the sort of situation I would dread finding myself in.

I didn’t see much bitterness from the commentators, but I did see a fair amount of pragmatism. Given her husband is unable to provide and unlikely to change, and given the poster has no control over that, it’s likely a hard decision will need to be taken soon and that hard decision will likely involve some form of paid employment and/or emotional separation for the poster. It’s completely unfair, as you say, but there are no magic words that will make her husband suddenly work really hard and pull his weight around the home.

Don't have kids.

There's literally no reason to, apart from the biological imperative / our base instincts.

I felt for the OP too. She is reliant on someone who can’t provide for her and it’s going to mean she has to make some difficult decisions. Relying on a husband can be a risky business unfortunately, and it doesn’t seem like it comes without conditions. I think this fear is what underpins women having rainy day funds too. MN is full of heartbreaking stories about marriages breaking down and the ramifications of that, and that’s aside from whatever situations we all encounter amongst our social circles. It would take a strong woman not to be at least a little cautious.

Not my experience 🤷🏻‍♀️
Waited to have children when my salary was well above NMW and I’d saved enough to take a full year leave.
Actively chose to stay in a company where I’d seen women return from mat leave into promotions, with 2 C-suite women on a job share.
Exercised my right to apply for flexible working for a 4 day week for another year.
Met a group of women through nursery - birthday parties, my child talking about theirs, getting familiar seeing them at pick up - with similar jobs, lifestyles, non judgemental approach to working mothers.
Continued to love my job, get promoted.
No idea if anyone judged that - I gave zero fucks so wouldn’t notice if they had.
Never once considered nursery fees as using up “my” salary alone.
Realised I had a lazy childcare-avoidant husband (unexpected) so made sure not to take on ANYTHING for him, to even it out a bit.
Didn’t mind doing everything (practically and “mental load”) for child as loved it. Did resent him being domestically lazy, but as I said - didn’t do “his” stuff. No laundry, or managing his family stuff. Never just took on being the family shopper or cook.
Found out he cheated.
Left him, because I could easily afford to.
Have happy ever after co-parented for 12 years.
Still love my job. Get paid well. Loved being a single parent. Remarried as did XH. My husband taught child to play golf. XH’s new wife taught child to bake (not my strength).
12 years on (earlier, really) is too long to carry anger at XH - I don’t care, it was another lifetime.
Everyone happy.
Pension intact.

Save before you have children.
Look at how your company treats mothers and move on if you don’t like what you see.
Never consider childcare as coming from one salary.
And most of all: give zero fucks about anyone else’s opinion on your choices.

Most of my “mum friends” aren’t divorced, most have only minor niggles occasionally over domestic/child workload quickly resolved. Almost all are happy with the choices they made.

The problem is we expect less of men these days. Men have got it easier then ever.

There's no sisterhood amounts women in addition certain women want to do everything for a man, pay for his dinner, cook his dinner, roll over at the end of the night.
No wonder modern day men are such babies and women think it's "powerful" to have a man child as a husband/partner

Yuk yuk yuk

Amongst

I would really love to know how paying for dates or going "halves" (yuk) is "powerful" you're a mug. Simple as.

Your husband was lazy and useless because you did everything.
His role as a 'man' was completely redundant.what was the point in him if he couldn't even provide for his wife and child. Jesus.