Women end up being losers no matter what

[doireallywanttostartthisnow]

Situation A: well educated woman meets man, marries, has child, feels overwhelmed by childcare cost/ options, gives up work, has another child, finds it hard to get back into wink place now eldest is at school, needs to be around for the month of half days, sick days, strike days, nursery closures and so as not to interrupt husbands career so he can earn more 'family money'. Husband ends up resentful, doesn't pay into pension for dear wife, moans about work stress that she doesn't understand. Wife feels too belittled to return to work or goes into something way below her level of experience. She used to be a marketing manager but now she works at a local toy shop as it's shorter hours and flexible (but MW and business may go bust/ no room for progression).

Situation B: same woman does not give up career, goes back after mat leave, faces judgement, works for free due to childcare costs until eldest is 3. Uses holiday club and wraparound childcare. Feels like a hamster on a wheel and knows none of the parents names as she's never in the after school park club. Still has to deal with all the house/ life admin. Resents husband. Leaves the bastard. Now officially does everything alone (woohoo?). Ex DH pays a minimal amount which only covers some childcare. Woman may be financially better off but is exhausted and also faces judgement due to leaving the marriage.

The problem is that hardly anyone is in situation C meaning happy, less stressed, supported, financially independent and in a truly equal marriage. I know about three women who are.
So what do we teach our daughters? Don't have kids? Choose better men? So few men appear to be bellends when we first meet them at art school? None of them appear to be moany, vindictive, controlling, feeble, martyr like or miserly?
How do we ever move on from the fate of being either supported ('kept') or independent ('exhausted')?

@Nevermay

Really really it is as simple as that -love raising children, or don't raise children.

I don't understand women who choose to have children then moan about them

When you say "love raising children or don't raise children" what do you actually mean by that?

Most of us want to have and raise children enough that we have children but it doesn't follow that we should be expected to do all the raising of children without any support. Every child has two parents, it isn't only the mother's role.

It's perfectly legitimate to advocate and fight for as much support as you can get from the other parent. That in no way invalidates your love for your children.

works for free due to childcare costs until eldest is 3

Thats hardly ever true though because it doesn’t take into account money going into pension, or the fact that it’s contributing to career progression , so when child is 3yo there would likely be a promotion that wouldn’t have occurred otherwise. That is a start to further promotions etc.

I wholeheartedly disagree that a woman is "working for free".

If she takes home £1000 and childcare costs £1000, I can see why she might feel like that. But there are NI & pension contributions and opportunities to progress or retain her place in the workforce. Not to mention the independence.

A joint child is a joint expense and the woman should still have access to the remainder of the family money.

Some, not all, women, play this card because they want to stay at home with the kids instead of working. Some really dont have a choice though.

@Nevermay loving raising children and the impossible strain of balancing finances, having a career and being the sole parent are two different things.
I'll be honest
Being just a mum isn't enough for me.
I need a fulfilling career. I need to help people. Why are men allowed to say this but it's taboo for women to say it. That doesn't mean I don't want to be a parent. But I need something else.

It's not taboo for women to say it @doireallywanttostartthisnow?! Why would you think it is? All my friends feel the same and we're very open about it with no negativity encountered ever.

@Gothambutnotahamster it's taboo according to @Nevermay

Completely agree with this.

I can't see where @Nevermay says that? @doireallywanttostartthisnow ?

If you aren't fussed by marriage or kids, there's lots of happy options.

Thats ignoring if you have a happy equal marriage of course.

I love my job, friends and travel.

It called being a grown up/adult I'm afraid. As my dad used to say wake up/dress up and show up! It's not east for either sex despite the stereo types.

@Gothambutnotahamster "really really it is as simple as that -love raising children, or don't raise children.

I don't understand women who choose to have children then moan about them"

Well a lot of parents don't realise what they're in for until it happens.

Situation B: same woman does not give up career, goes back after mat leave, faces judgement, works for free due to childcare costs

I don't know why people still come out with this rubbish

I spend all of my wages too on necessities. Am I "working for free"??

@JamSandle I was quoting another poster

We read that differently @doireallywanttostartthisnow - i don't see how that says it's taboo to have children and also say you enjoy your career?

They're not mutually exclusive things to me (& my friendship group / work colleagues etc).

You do seem very fixated on being a victim in your own life & that's not healthy. You have choices - they may not be great ones (I don't know!) but they're still there.

I'm in situation C. Equal marriage. Equal share of mental load (though actually I think due to my DH's personality type he might be holding a bit more of the mental load!). Equal responsibility with children. I'm not the default parent. Equal pensions, equal disposable income.

How did I do it? I chose a good man and have really strong feminist principles. It's partly due to the fact my mum died suddenly when I was young and I'm insistent that my DH can do everything I can (and vice versa of course).

His cheese sauce and hanging up of wet washing leaves a lot to be desired. I'm rubbish at changing the lightbulbs in the car (don't have the finger strength).

We're a proper team. We have our moments where we bicker but we always make up and really do enjoy each others company.

Choose a good man is the first place to start.

I agree with you Op. I was also totally shocked to find my now exh’s reaction to having a child - the assumption that everything was by default my job, and he could help where he chose, came totally out of the blue and differed to all previously avowed opinions.

I think the point is the inequality of the choices available to men and woman. Again, for hetero couples, of course woman have a choice to stick with a partner on unequal domestic terms (the vast majority do, like me and literally every other 'coupled' woman I know, because of other factors) or fight it out for the tiny number of men who pull their weight - remember you can't tell who these men are before the shit hits the fan, maybe years into a relationship, so it is a hugely risky exercise. Men face no such choice. Hats off to single mothers, very impressive indeed holding it together. I'm assuming here that most people men and woman want to be in a long term relationship. Still, for me the benefits of being a woman and mother outweigh the negatives.

Both myself and DH are in professional roles and earn similar amounts, we have a joint pot for money, we share childcare responsibilities and we share household responsibilities. Neither of us have had to take a step back because of children.

my 'c' was marrying later ie career established. bit bullet and went self employed when pregnant. never took maternity leave and juggled with my better half. earning double what i was pre children and work my hours around them. my advice to any young females is do not leave work!!!!!!

I think people need to be very careful with saying all or most men are like this and women have to basically tolerate this as they have no choice. My best friend is married to an awful awful man who is selfish, lazy and becoming increasingly controlling and verbally abusive and she stays because she thinks “most men are like this” and she won’t get any better, it doesn’t help that all the women in her family are with shit men too and put up with it. It’s simply not true and leads women to stay in terrible situations because they think “it’s just life”.

This thread is just ridiculous. It’s well known women suffer more in the work place because even if their husband’s are perfect there is a perception that working mothers are less able and less trust worthy, while working fathers are more so. So much privilege showing.

I think a lot is about re-enacting or copying what your parents didn't know they lived. So in reality, it might take several generations to get out of the habit of women taking on certain roles in the house..

It's also about setting expectations from the very beginning, and not, assuming those caring roles immediately out of some misplaced desire to show how much you love your husband or boyfriend or whatever.

And then, of course it's making sure you pick a decent husband or partner, and then it's also about making sure that you don't give up your job and that you push as hard as they do it with careers .

But a lot of women but dint want to spend time away from the kids when they were young so ultimately decide to take an active decision to step back.

For my own situation. I married a decent guy. My career took a small hit when I had babies due the nature of the industry. But I made some positive choices and sacrificed some family time and now I earn more than my husband and I work away 10-15 days a month and love my job. We balance it all out but I have just never accepted the premise that his job/career/wants are more important.

Epic dictation fail.

How parents lived and what they did

Or my situation go back to work part time after children, husband also drops to part time hours, childcare is shared equally, money is joint so we are both paying for childcare on the days we both work. We are both earning money to contribute to the household are both paying into pensions and have equal opportunities for promotion.