To literally BEG women to set themselves up, financially?

[CallieRedux]

Typed out a long post full of personal details, then deleted, but, honestly, the specifics don't matter. What DOES matter is that you save every tiny bit you can, because having FUCK YOU money is - by far - the most important thing you can do for yourself.

It's saved me from everything from wrong relationships, shit jobs, from natural disasters... I have both made lots of money, and not, but having savings, and the ability to walk away is having POWER, and the best "self care" a woman can have.

Shit happens. Things change. Even to you. Yes, you can save - even a little - when you are poor.

Do it. Please.

Same problem here, they seem to genuinely despise their families. Quite sad really.

These same men will talk about oh how important they are and they can't possibly go part time, have any flexibility and have to work long hours. When in reality that isn't the case.

I agree with you - this is not about demonising SAHM.

People should make their own choices but do so sensibly & cognisant of the impact on them in the future, and in the event of a marriage breakdown.

I'd blame the man because of: I used to work in the city and the amount of men who would willingly do additional hours to miss 'bath and bedtime' was not only awful but meant all of us were expected to stay as they couldn't be arsed to support their partners and parent their children.

Exactly.

I missed out on a potential opportunity which would've helped my progression, not because I wasn't capable but because it included some travel and it was just assumed I wouldn't want the time away from my baby.

100%! PP just don't seem to understand.

1 PP said: I used to work in the city and the amount of men who would willingly do additional hours to miss 'bath and bedtime' was not only awful but meant all of us were expected to stay as they couldn't be arsed to support their partners and parent their children. not shocked in the slightest.

I am in am 40s now and growing up in the 80s I was explicitly told by my parents that my education, career and earning power was not very important because I would one day have a husband who took care of all that, and that this was right and desirable

This is also interesting. I am 50 and went to an academically selective girls' independent school in the 70s and 80s. The sole expectation was that we were going to have high-flying careers. Marriage and children were never mentioned. It was university (preferably law, medicine or engineering), and career-focussed.

@Pencilstencil - yes I've seen it too but is not just in the City. And these men weren't flattering about their wives either. They laughed about what they did. Pigs they were and still are, I'm sure.

it isn't best for society for several reasons including women like us who have to compete with men who have SAHM's facilitating their careers.

@SouthLondonMum22
You are wildly generalising.

I know of a situation where a high earning man has a SAHM with unfortunately significant MH issues.

His high salary facilitates extra childcare, cleaners etc.

But he's very hands-on too.

It is not the fault of SAHM that women in the workplace continue to face challenges.

And this thread is not saying 'never be a SAHM' and 'all women must work outside the home'. It's saying make informed, careful choices that protect you in the event of life changes.

And guess who gets the promotion.. Man or women? Wonder who it'll be!

In our senior leadership team (one level above me), there are 2 men, 3 women. All 3 women have DC. One woman is the main earner & both her DC have SN. All are married.

At the very senior level (university), the top position is held by a married woman. The level one below is a mixture of married and unmarried men and women, some with children. Some not.
Our issue is far more about lack of diversity in terms of ethnicity, background & race - almost everyone is white and MC.

You are peculiarly judgmental.

In regards to who I work with, I'm not generalising at all.

Though I'd argue that what I said is usually the case the majority of the time. Not always but definitely more often than not.

I've lost count how many times I've seen SAHM's on here alone talk about one of the reasons why they do it is to facilitate their husband's career because he's a high earner.

Absolutely, make whatever decision you like but I'm not going to pretend that I believe it's a positive one for equality as a whole within society.

I learned this message from my mum who was shafted in her divorce by my dad in the days that pension assets were not included in the settlement. He went off with the lot and she had no pension aged 48. She threw herself into full-time work, paid her pension, paid additional contributions, bought him out of the mortgage, paid it down and lived a very frugal but fun life. She's my absolute role model.

@Frazzledmum123 it's not sad to think that you aren't a couple..it's pragmatic. I didn't get divorced, my husband got terminally ill and then died. The best thing I ever did was not give up work (and I wobbled) when my children were little, or rather, I did for a year or so and then went back so there was a tiny hit career-wise, and he did the same with the second child.

There's a lot of talk on here about savings and marital assets- but also think about a) life insurance, mortgage protection, we cancelled ours as too expensive at a time we were struggling, which was a regret when he became ill, obviously! I did receive a payout from a previous company insurance of his. Get cheap life insurance, just enough to cover the mortgage if worst comes to worst b) pension, SAHP get contributions through child benefit so make sure you get that paid to you, and you can go online and see if you have enough contributions to get the full state pension (I think it's 35 years)
https://www.gov.uk/check-state-pension
c) keep working in a job that can be amplified if necessary- my mum could increase her hours as a teacher, and that saved her from poverty in old age.

It is also true that these days a lot of things are predicated on two incomes per household and it's still hard to make ends meet even if you are well-prepared. If you earn £50k, it's like two people earning 25k each which is nothing, and given that tax allowances are calculated separately, it's worse which is very annoying as a lone parent. Don't even get me started on the removal of child benefit at 50-60K for individual parents, but ok up to the same amount x 2 for couples.

Life is unfair and the financial system is no exception, but the more you know the more you can protect yourself.

don't you think there is a societal expectation that when a woman becomes a mother she will become a SAHM/go part time?

I don't, no.

I think in practice, this is what happens a lot, but I don't see it as an expectation.

In my area of work & broader network, it's rare that anyone is a SAHM. I know & work with very high-achieving women.

Do I think that structurally we are still not supporting parents generally, and mothers specifically, to the extent required? Absolutely. That's different to your statement though.

I used to work in the city and the amount of men who would willingly do additional hours to miss 'bath and bedtime' was not only awful but meant all of us were expected to stay as they couldn't be arsed to support their partners and parent their children.

Well I haven't worked in the City (I'm in Ireland). But I've worked in the private & public sector. I've never experienced this nor the pressure to stay on because these specific men did.

@LucyGru

It's not about 'being told'. I come from a family where all the women worked.

I am highly educated & successful in my career.

What I lacked was sufficient self-esteem to see I was in an abusive relationship which got progressively worse as we had DC.

It's far more about empowering & supporting women to back themselves, to question, to prepare & to be unafraid to walk away. That's a lot more than telling women that their career matters etc (which was something I was always told anyway).

@anonymousxoxo

I understand what you are saying & have experienced (you sound like you work in a toxic environment, why don't you leave?).

I'm not prepared to accept that it's all high-earning men in all workplaces & I'm in no way prepared to blame SAHM, as you are!

You are ignoring my examples of workplaces where it's entirely different, high-earning or not.

Your experience isn't necessarily universal & jumping on SAHM is completely unfair.

Yes, obviously.

In regards to who I work with

Yes. Who you work with. Which is not everywhere 🤷🏻‍♀️

But in the post from you I quoted you cited generally men with SAHM wives being an issue for female promotion

Hence why I took issue with it. If it's true for you, that's one thing. You can't generalise to everyone. I'm frankly horrified that it seems to be ok to attack SAHM as the cause of issues you perceive.

@EarringsandLipstick That is a very patronising post. You said yourself that there were red flags in your relationship that you didn't see. I'm sorry but this is exactly what I am talking about. You were obviously blinded by something but the fact you can look back now and say they were there proves he wasn't that great at hiding himself, you just obviously didn't want to see it
And yes, I do know my husband wouldn't do that to me. I am as sure as is humanly possible to be. Not because I could say for absolute certain he would never want to hurt me if I'd done something terrible (not that I would but let's pretend I had), not because he is perfect or a Saint but because I KNOW, and I don't care how arrogant that sounds but I do know, that he would always without doubt do what is best for the kids and that wouldn't be to hurt me. He is a decent and level headed person enough to know it would destroy them and would put their feelings first. So yes I do know, God love me. If he had left during maternity leave, he would have paid what was necessary to keep them well looked after. I may of had to move but he would not have put us in a place where we had nothing. And I did acknowledge several times that I am lucky enough to have family, and family like friends, around that would have helped so that may make this easier for me but I repay in kind and that is something a lot of people on mn also don't seem interested in anymore - I've seen so many posts 'you don't owe them' 'put yourself first' etc etc where a simple favour would be easy to do but people aren't interested in doing anything they don't feel like it seems. So I think the whole thing is pretty sad yes, you shouldn't need escape money from someone you are planning on building a life with. There are always exceptions but I do think a lot of issues come from people not being choosy enough, ignoring the warnings, I stand by that.

So, me a woman is the problem and I should leave rather than challenge and make the workplace better for women?

So, me a woman is the problem and I should leave rather than challenge and make the workplace better for women?

I'll add to the above ^

Should feminists have given up?

@Highdaysandholidays1 But that's different (and I am genuinely sorry for your loss). As I said before it's always sensible to have some rainy day money for situations like yours to give you time to find a job if necessary but that's different to hiding money of your own away so you can escape. I can't get my head around marrying someone and thinking 'I'll just make sure I can escape him if necessary'. The part I find really sad is that your partner should be the person who you feel has your back more than anyone else in the world surely, if you can't trust them in life who can you? That's what I feel is sad

She is genuinely just deluded because she can't see the affects a SAHM has on a man in the workplace compared to his female colleagues. But, I should give up and leave.

My work isn't toxic btw, my male colleagues are fine with me it's more the facilitated part I dislike.

My work isn't toxic btw, my male colleagues are fine with me it's more the facilitated part I dislike.

You can't trust anyone in this life except yourself, that is the harsh reality.

@Frazzledmum123

Not patronising.

Any woman can find themselves in a situation they could not imagine (do you never read the Relationships Board? 🙄)

This includes you. Of course I hope it never will! But it is possible. As is the fact that he could quite easily decide to an unfair manipulative bastard.

Of course you can't live life thinking like this but you are naive if you don't realise it's possible & think in some way of your own security.

because I KNOW, and I don't care how arrogant that sounds but I do know, that he would always without doubt do what is best for the kids and that wouldn't be to hurt me

You don't know. I've seen with my own eyes (not my own situation as my H was not in anyway decent!) but other situations where guys you'd never imagine doing this, utterly screwed their wives & kids.

And you're right - I said this - I was myself naive, trusting & lacking in self-esteem which meant I ignored red flags. BUT where abuse is involved it's insidious. What I had no foresight of his that he would be an abuser. That's the point. So perhaps you need to think about your own patronising approach.

It's not about having an escape fund necessarily. It's about valuing yourself so that you ensure you have proper provision that's not dependent on someone else entirely.