3 year old being taught to pray at nursery, aibu to not be comfortable with this?

[arobynw]

Hello fellow mums,

Been umming and erring over posting all weekend as religion is such a sensitive subject and I admit that because I don’t follow any religion (atheist), I’m worried I may unintentionally offend someone. If I do, I’m sorry! I’m happy to be educated!

My 3 year old son goes to an amazing nursery and has done since he was 11 months old. They follow an effective curriculum and he has grown and developed so much in their care.

Last week, he moved up to nursery school as he has just turned 3 years old. He has found the move very overwhelming but we expected it as it’s a big move. By Wednesday, we were sat down having a small tea together and I was sure I heard him say “need to say prayers” but that was it. On Thursday, we picked him up early as it was his birthday so we had a proper dinner all together. I had started eating and he told me “no no no no! You haven’t said prayers!” I was confused but asked him to say the prayers. His speech isn’t the clearest yet, but I definitely made out amen at the end.

I haven’t told him not to say prayers or shown to him that I’ve been uncomfortable, just thanked him and ate dinner.

I do not have a problem with people following religion, so long as it’s not forced on anyone who doesn’t wish to follow a religion. I am also fine with my son following a religion if he wishes, however I want him to have the ability to make that informed decision on his own when he is old enough to think for himself.

his nursery is not a CoE nursery and he’s never done prayers here previously so I was quite surprised that he is very clearly saying prayers now. If it was simply saying thanks for food etc I’d be ok with that, but there is definitely a religious theme to the prayers.

there are 24 kids in his room and I don’t want to be awkward and cause a stink or make things difficult for his incredible key workers, but I do feel uncomfortable as I feel like it’s being forced upon him.

is my lack of knowledge in this area the problem rather than what’s happening? Am I being unreasonable? What should I do?

thank you all

Because CofE is the only religion?

If it is not a school affiliated to a particular church or religion then I agree that they should not be doing this.

I was brought up COE and brought my children up (loosely) as COE and I actually work in a Catholic school trust so I am surrounded by religion now but I am really heading to agnostic personally. All this means I don't actually mind my children being taught about religion in this passive way (I chose to send them to the catholic secondary school I work at so have no choice there really).

That said, if it's not a religious school, I agree that this sort of passive religious teaching us out of place. Part of a RE lesson then fine. Part of everyday life and it doesn't feel right.

I'd just find out a bit more.

But - being taught to pray at age 3 won't make him into a raving loony Christian. He'll be far more influenced by his family values and by you.

And given the nursery is so good, and he has developed so well, and you're so happy with it - one thought might be that a Christian ethos (if indeed there is one) could play a role in this happy setting?

Not in the sense that a "God" is sending down magical blessings from above - but that a nursery that values reflection and space in prayer is one which knows how to create the kind of calm and holding environment where kids thrive?

I would try to be open rather than go in laying down the law too much.

It always surprises me how many people are unaware that schools in England (not sure about other parts of the UK) are legally required to carry out acts of collective worship of a broadly Christian nature. It comes up again and again.

For info...
https://humanists.uk/campaigns/schools-and-education/collective-worship/

How schools interpret it is variable and tbh in my experience most don't push it, but that's the law!

I'm not sure how not wanting your child to be made to pray is the same as stopping your child from being exposed to any religion. If nothing else they will be taught RE at school.

Funded by some Christians? What does that mean? If it's funded by a church surely it's a church school.

Thank you for this thread.

I've learnt so much here about the uk school system that I hadn't understood. It puts some family stories into perspective. I hadn't really understood the part that religion plays in state schools, even those that are not specifically faith based.

As an Australian I have an inherent distaste for religion in state schools. Partly due to the fact that here we are constantly told that our schools are secular. They aren't, but prayer would not be accepted. I expect that Canada may be similar.

As a Jew I also wouldn't find ANY prayer to be essentially the same as a nursery rhyme or communal thank you to the cooks. I don't want my children to ever be taught to participate in any prayer or service from another faith. I don't consider that neutral. My hackles raised as I read post after post dismissing this practice as harmless.

My younger children did attend a Steiner kindergarten when they were young and they definitely had rhymes and rhythms they used throughout the day, including a thank you of some kind when they sat to eat. That did not mention god, was not called a prayer and did not end with amen.

To the OP - I would ask the centre. Probably the key worker first. Is it something the centre has put in place? Is it a particular staff member? Or is it, as some have suggested, coming from a peer? Either way, would you and they be open to adapting it so that it loses the religious flavour?

I would also ensure that you have conversations with your child about how some things are for particular settings, and don't move across. I'm sure between you you'll find a list of things that are part of his routine at nursery but not at home. This could be one of those things.

And it isn't too early to start mentioning that there are different beliefs. If they do say a prayer lead by a teacher then it's very likely that they will teach the Christmas story as true history. If that's something you are concerned about then it's ok even at 3 to start laying the groundwork towards an understanding that there are stories that are true (history) ones that may be true (legends) ones that some people believe are true (religious texts) and that this is what your family ethos is. Do make sure you and his father are on the same page :)

So donations from individuals who happen to be Christian? That doesn't mean they get to dictate whether children have to pray.

No church funds a school if it’s a state school. Fact. They might own the buildings and technically employ the staff but they don’t shell out the money for them or anything else. School finance is not getting contributions from churches. Nor do nurseries. They might let a nursery have free premises but few churches actually pay the staff and run the business.

What the Catholic Church demands of schools is very different to the government’s curriculum document. Most dc need saving from 5 hours a week religion out of 22.

@nonheme CofE and Catholic schools are embedded in the state education system and many since Victorian times. In many rural areas lots of the village schools are CofE. Fewer are catholic. You might have to travel miles to find one that isn’t CofE. The controlled ones are standard entry too. You don’t need any religious affiliation to get in. No reserved places for church goers. Plus they often have a catchment so people know where they stand . So how far are people meant to travel to avoid them?

Jewish schools are not universally provided anywhere . Nor Muslim ones. CofE is entirely different. Aided CofE - you expect more religion. Controlled you don’t. Certainly the Diocesan Education boards here are expanding their schools to meet demand but, at the same time, promoting religion far more then they used to. But it’s very very difficult, and expensive, to avoid them (never mind car emissions) and means DC leaving their community. Plus the other community schools might be full of their local Dc. So the majority put up with it. When it was CofE “lite” it was ok. Now, some heads are changing the character of the schools and because the majority of governors come from the church, that’s seen as great.

I'm all for separation of church and state. I live in the US and am a practicing Catholic. I chose to send my DCs to a RC primary school ( and paid the tuition fees, because church schools are not state supported in the US). They went to a state high school - they have experienced both religious and secular education therefore.

You are clearly in a position where you're over a barrel - Hobson's choice, etc, to mix metaphors. I think it's unfair that the family culture can't be honoured by state schools in England and Wales, that children and families are placed in uncomfortable situations, that members of minority religions or atheists, etc must pay lip service to a religious belief they don't share. I don't think it engenders anything but resentment and hypocrisy.

However, I take issue with the way you're responding to this. Telling a child that it's all 'lies', and that her teacher is silly for believing in 'fairy tales' is not teaching your child respect or tolerance. I respectfully suggest that you should be honest with your child about your choice to send her to that particular school, (and perhaps embrace the fact that at least your child will have a concrete basis for making a decision on religious belief later in life).

I have to agree with you.
I notice parents who claim to be letting their child make up their own mind tend to be quick to tell them not to pray, not to follow any of the teachings etc.
As a Catholic we baptise and state we will demonstrates our faith to our children as we raise them because we recognise they are babies and cannot make that choice for themselves yet. Baptism is not confirmation! They can then take part in their first holy communion only when they are old enough to understand what communion means (around Primary 4/aged 8) This then allows them to participate in communion every time they go to Mass and means by the time Confirmation comes around (usually about age 12ish) they have had experience of living the faith and can decide for themselves if they wish to be confirmed as members of the church or not. Obviously I can't speak for all Catholics but in our case we definitely let our children decide for themselves at Confirmation age. If they choose not to be confirmed that is their decision and we respect that, we just ask that they in turn respect us too.
The people who shove atheism down their kids throats are not really any better than people who shove religion down their kids throats.

YYY to your points here.

Ironically, it was a 19th century RC Archbishop of NYC, known as 'Dagger John' because of his characteristic signature, who first raised the alarm about children being exposed to religious doctrine in NYC public schools. His concern was for RC children being taught Catholic doctrine was lies, abomination, etc. From those beginnings, the principle of religious neutrality and eventually the secular nature of American public schools developed.

(As an aside, you might be interested to learn that the RC church considers the Steiner organisation and its schools to be a cult.)

One poster here gets extra teachers and a better quality of education in a Catholic school.
As the poster is not paying fees somebody is funding the extra money.
The money is to support the ethos.
Once the ethos is publically stated a parent has to choose how to plan for the long term educational needs of their children.

In the UK the majority of taxpayers are not objecting to christian values being a base ethos standard or ethos schools getting funding or demanding secular schooling

So until the taxpayers objects the majority rules and the will of the people dictates school ethos.

I am always happy for children to learn ABOUT religion... Christians believe abc, Muslims believe bcd etc. I would advocate for religious groups to have that right, and do.
But I have always objected to children being taught these things as Fact, rather than belief.
I would be speaking to the Nursery!

Nothing from the OP suggests that the nursery is a Catholic nursery. And i'm not sure how you can speak for the majority of tax payers.

This is my favourite response so far. Thank you! Yes I think you’re right, the difference in Canada I suspect is part of why I find this so bizarre and hard to get my head around. I’m very happy with the nursery and happy for my son to learn about religion (not just Christianity or Catholic). We will be having a casual chat with his key worker shortly to understand where it’s coming from and go from there.

I’ve also found this thread incredibly educational and has helped me think of how I can introduce religious awareness in our home.

I’m surprised by how many people seem to be getting confused about learning and practicing. learning about religion is different to practicing. Knowledge is power and I would never knowingly prevent my son from learning about anything.

thanks again for your response.

Correct. It’s not a religious nursery in any form. And we are paying the fees for the nursery, not the state/tax payers :)

I’ll post an update once we have spoken to nursery later this evening.

i have to say, I’m quite surprised by the amount of people suggesting removing him. His nursery really is incredible and do teach the children about religious or cultural celebrations throughout the year as and when the time comes, such as Eid, Diwali, Chinese new year… and I find this excellent. The concern is around practicing something religious, not learning.

I have no doubt a conversation with his nursery will be able to resolve any concerns we have without going to the extremes of removing him from a setting he is otherwise very happy in, as are we. The purpose of this post was to help educate me on what the norm is and learning about other approaches has been very useful.

I also wouldn’t want to teach my child that the solution to problems is to run away from it.

thanks all!

@mathanxiety

Yes. I also think it's a cult. However it was the least worst choice and I brought it up here partly to show that it's possible to find a way to adapt a system to meet the needs of the community involved.

@arobynw

I'm glad my thoughts were helpful. I hope you have a constructive conversation with the nursery staff.

Never suggested the Op's nursry followed any ethos.

I am not speaking for anyone.
Simply pointing out the lack of public demos, lack of letters in the paper, lack of media debates on TV; all the stuff which prompts members bills to change existing law.