3 year old being taught to pray at nursery, aibu to not be comfortable with this?

[arobynw]

Hello fellow mums,

Been umming and erring over posting all weekend as religion is such a sensitive subject and I admit that because I don’t follow any religion (atheist), I’m worried I may unintentionally offend someone. If I do, I’m sorry! I’m happy to be educated!

My 3 year old son goes to an amazing nursery and has done since he was 11 months old. They follow an effective curriculum and he has grown and developed so much in their care.

Last week, he moved up to nursery school as he has just turned 3 years old. He has found the move very overwhelming but we expected it as it’s a big move. By Wednesday, we were sat down having a small tea together and I was sure I heard him say “need to say prayers” but that was it. On Thursday, we picked him up early as it was his birthday so we had a proper dinner all together. I had started eating and he told me “no no no no! You haven’t said prayers!” I was confused but asked him to say the prayers. His speech isn’t the clearest yet, but I definitely made out amen at the end.

I haven’t told him not to say prayers or shown to him that I’ve been uncomfortable, just thanked him and ate dinner.

I do not have a problem with people following religion, so long as it’s not forced on anyone who doesn’t wish to follow a religion. I am also fine with my son following a religion if he wishes, however I want him to have the ability to make that informed decision on his own when he is old enough to think for himself.

his nursery is not a CoE nursery and he’s never done prayers here previously so I was quite surprised that he is very clearly saying prayers now. If it was simply saying thanks for food etc I’d be ok with that, but there is definitely a religious theme to the prayers.

there are 24 kids in his room and I don’t want to be awkward and cause a stink or make things difficult for his incredible key workers, but I do feel uncomfortable as I feel like it’s being forced upon him.

is my lack of knowledge in this area the problem rather than what’s happening? Am I being unreasonable? What should I do?

thank you all

Exactly. I don't think people realise that in the state sector there is effectively no such thing as a secular school. And in some areas the only or nearest state school is a faith school. Parental choice is rather an illusion I'm afraid. Go ahead and subvert the fuck out of it I say @Piranhaha . It's a stupid system and no politicians have the balls to shake it up.

I think this is due to Ofsted.

I spent a week in a primary when I did my PGCE and asked about them praying before lunch, they had been told by Ofsted they needed to include an 'act of daily worship'.

You have the right to withdraw your child.

Not a chat bot, real human being who didn’t grow up in the UK so not sure what the “norm” is within the UK educational system.

Your Op seriously reads like an AI bot 🤖

Hello.... fellow...

Mums

If it was a fully funded State School it would not be a Catholic School.
It would be the exact same as the failing school where the classes are twice the size.
Or do you think that the State flips a coin when allocating funding and is allowed to employ less teachers on a whim.

It looks like your child is getting to free ride on someone's disposable income.

If you choose a religious school, then you have to accept that there will be religious practice. It’s a catholic school so this will be catholic practice. I personally wouldn’t send my child to a catholic school because we are not religious - even if it is the better school. I understand that you have and that’s up to you, but to tell your children that the teacher who is teaching at a Catholic school is ‘silly’ for having different beliefs/praying etc has surprised me. It’s hardly setting them up to be tolerant of other people’s beliefs when they are different to their own.

My ILs are practicing Christians. We discuss this with our children in a sensitive way. We do not believe at all, but would not say they are silly for believing something that we don’t.

Yes, unbelievably in 2023 schools are still supposed to have religious assemblies, broadly Christian in character...

Just ask the nursery about it. You don't say whether or not it is a nursery attached to a C of E/Roman Catholic school. If it is and you have chosen to send DS there then you can probably expect this sort of thing yet still tell him that you don't bother with it at home.

I went to a C of E primary school. Grace was said before school dinner (!!) every day. We never said it at home at all.

As others have suggested, it possibly comes from another child for whom it is normal at home.

Every single family, society and institution indictrinates children with something.

You don't choose though, that's the point.

DD2 was allocated to her nearest secondary school, it happens to have a faith focus. Parental choice of school is mostly an illusion. In a lot of areas there are only faith schools. All schools have to have a daily Christian act of worship. There is no choice of secular school.

I’m not sure where you are but we have to choose 3 schools. They may or may not be in catchment. I have 3 secondaries in the local area - one is Catholic. I put one of the local schools (not my catchment) and two other schools that are in the next town. The Catholic was supposedly the ‘best’ while I was applying, but had ofsted mid year since and went from outstanding to inadequate. Our first choice was oversubscribed but we got in, although friends slightly further out didn’t.

I did the same for both children for primary. There is definitely choice for us here. You risk not getting in if you choose an oversubscribed and possibly then being given a school you didn’t put on your list, but there is choice.

Thank you, God, for the food you gave,
While in the kitchen, Mother did slave
To turn it into something edible.
Thank God for Mother, she’s incredible!

Thank you, God, for Auntie’s food,
She cooks as if she’s burning wood!
From the colour of the smoking, you can tell
Who will be the next new Pope, as well!

@floribunda18 again, i’m not sure where you are but I’ve worked in 3 community schools and they never had a daily act of Christian worship.

Op fwiw, I went to a religious school for all of my primary and secondary education. About 14 years in total. If anything, it turned me off religion for a very long time. I can't speak for all 120 of my year group, but judging by how we all behaved towards the end of high school, I would say that the other felt the same. I became a Christian 20 years later in spite of the religious drillings we got in school. I bring my children up with prayer and Bible stories and they still ask a lot of questions and push back in a very healthy way. I'd love for them to share my beliefs but forced faith is no faith at all. I don't think anyone has converted to any faith based on saying Grace a few times but I still understand your point. Ask at the nursery as sometimes a quick chat clears a lot of confusion up! I'm a teacher in a secular school, BTW. We aren't allowed to mention Jesus at Christmas, but we still teach the kids about Diwili, Eid and Hanukkah! I go along with it as it's the policy, and unless a child directly asked me a question about my faith, I don't force it. If you've signed up to a system which doesn't promote any particular faith, it is your right not to have that involved in your child's education. I agree that learning about different faiths is different to participating in them.

I didn’t choose a religious school. The catchment school in my village is a Catholic primary. It would be stupid to drive 20 minutes out of my way to take my child to the next nearest school, which is a failing school in town, and none of the kids who live here go there. And there’s no guarantee they don’t push religion there too.

If a school accepts government funding they should be forced to restrict any religious activity imo. If only because they have to accept children of different faiths and it’s wrong for the only school in the village to push Christianity on children who are Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, etc.

@floribunda18 how is it unbelievable? You are presumably aware that the reigning monarch in the UK is the head of the state church? That Anglican churches are essentially Catholic with the reigning monarch taking the place of the Pope as they do not adhere to apostolic succession (King Henry XII to thank for that).

You therefore would also know how ingrained the monarchy is in every aspect of how this country is run? From being on the currency, to having authority in the institution of Parliament, being head of armed forces etc... Yet somehow it's "unbelievable" to you that state schools are not wholly secular.

I am certainly not saying you need to agree with it by any means, I would never insult someone else's right to their faith or lack thereof. But it's not unbelievable given the entire country is centred around the monarchy and they play a massively pivotal role in the state religion regardless of whether we follow it or not- and no I'm not CofE myself.

VIII not VII! Stupid phone 😄

@floribunda18

All schools have to have a daily Christian act of worship.

They really don't. That directive was quietly dropped by the DfE quite a few years ago.
Apart from explicitly religious foundation schools, you'd be hard pushed to find a school holding daily Christian assemblies.

I know all that, but I find all that unbelievable in this day and age too.

That we have a monarch who people bow and scrape to. That we have an official religion. That we have bishops in the House of Lords.

It all seems so 19th century.

Under the (I think) 1988 Education Act all state schools in England are required to have a daily act of collective worship of a broadly Christian nature. Any school that doesn't is breaking their statutory duty.

Sorry, typo. 1998.

When I said the faith supports the school, I was not talking about finances.🙄I meant the ethos, the moral code etc.

"They really don't. That directive was quietly dropped by the DfE quite a few years ago."

It's not a directive. It's a statutory requirement. And can only be repealed by act of parliament. Which, as far as I know, it hasn't been. Some schools do not comply. That's not the same thing.

Playing devil's advocate here....

He seems to enjoy saying grace, seeing as he's so insistent on doing it, and it appears to be a part of his nursery routine that he's really keen on engaging with. By stopping him, aren't you impeding on his freedom of belief? Children at that age are often incredibly open to the idea of God and often really enjoy praying. I think that shutting him down at home and not allowing him to pray out loud is kind of dictatorial and oppressive.

In the same way you should never force a child to pray, I don't think you should ban them from praying either.

@Piranhaha

If only because they have to accept children of different faiths and it’s wrong for the only school in the village to push Christianity on children who are Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, etc.

Many RC primary schools in Birmingham have a large proportion of Muslim children. The only Jewish primary is majority Muslim. Parents actively choose these schools for their religious values as well as their academic standards. There are other choices available.

Don't presume to speak for others.

I would just ask at nursery if you are concerned, but more than likely it's something simple and non-religious. My dc both went to a private (not church) nursery and they always said a 'blessing' before meals together, which dc similarly came home and told me about and asked if we could do it at home too. It was simply a little 'thanks for the food' thing -'we say thank you for the food that we eat and the sun that shines and the oceans that give us water and our friends for sharing a meal with us' sort of thing. There was no mention of Jesus or god or Christianity. It was just a nice thing they all did together before lunch to acknowledge where their food came from and who made it for them and for having a communal meal. Nothing 'religious' about it and actually it was a really nice sentiment.

That said, dh and I are not religious, but we went to religious schools our whole lives and it failed at indoctrinating us. So I don't think I could get too worked up about a blessing before a meal at 3 years old. They will certainly get much more exposure to religion, even in a non-religious school. My dc now go to a non-church community school and they still go to church for remembrance day and do a nativity play, etc. and the vicar still does stuff at the school. You can talk at home about why you do the things you do in your family, but it's impossible for them not to be exposed to everything going on around them and in the community, so you do have to be ready to address that with your dc if it's something you feel strongly about.