To NOT expect my DC to clean up after themselves yet

[Goingoutat3]

Me and DH are in midst of a huge argument that started yesterday after spending a week listening to him snap at the DC to clean up their stuff. I mean I'm all for asking the DC to tidy at the end of the day.. sometimes at the end of the activity... But I'm also , I feel, realistic that theyre just kids... They don't realise the impact their "mess" has on the home and probably think the fairies clean their stuff away

DC are 9 and 4.5

DH attitude towards it is if it's not picked up/owned up to/cleaned away he will throw it in the bin

That's what happened yesterday, he semi-shouted from the kitchen "whoever's this is can you put it away or it's going in the bin"

DC9 was in eye shot of what 'this is'. DC4 and I were not.

DC9 said its not mine (which was right in the end as it was DC4's)

He then said okay it's going in the bin

I then shouted out what is it????

He told me it was a mini bowl (of which DC have one each for when they do mini cooking)

I then said can you take it out the bin it's DC4's

He said no you get it out the bin

This obviously pissed me off so I went into kitchen, took it out the bin, put it in dishwasher and told him he needs to lower his expectations of the kids.

This then escalated into a full blown argument about how I:

"Live like a pig" (ridiculous)
"Can't even organise myself to get the food shopping" (like a day or 2 late due to holidays/DC/my activities)
"Don't discipline the DC"

I've been round two seperate houses this week where I have witnessed the mess that other children make and subsequently their DMum or DDad picking up after them (within reason) or asking them to clean up after an activity before moving onto the next.

AIBU
Yes- they should be picking up after themselves every time at this age
No-DH expectations are too high

Anything in between?

Post edited by MNHQ

Tbh I wouldn't have had crayons in accessible places so yes I would have questioned. I'd have been annoyed about crayons and 4yr olds out unless at the table or colouring outside.

A bowl wouldn't just be out in my house. When dc were 4 they took their plates and bowls out to the kitchen. They wouldn't have gone in a cupboard and taken out a bowl and left it in the living room. Sounds odd to me.

I think you had dc with a man who you aren't compatible with and he's not compatible with you. I couldn't live like you, you couldn't live like me. Different strokes for different folks.

He's confusing having a hissy-fit with doing actual parenting.

Lots of men do, I'm afraid. He thinks if he stomps about and lays down the law, he's making a sterling contribution to family life and sorting the whole lazy bunch of you out in the meantime.

But they aren't capable.

You've both failed to install basic respect of rules around a home. If you open a cupboard and take something out - you open cupboard and put it back when you're done. You don't just dump it on the nearest surface.

Kids like to look at stuff all day long and so that could be 20 items per kids per day which is ridiculous.

The issue now is that your DH realises you've failed to implement simple basic rules of respect re tidying and has gone full on overload to start. And you don't like his technique so are continuing to allow your kids to dump stuff and calling it age appropriate (which it's not!)

Personally I'd get a big box in the garage or something. Place things taken out of cupboards and dumped anywhere in those boxes. You don't give chances - it's found then in it goes.

When a kid wants something that they preciously dumped and is in the box they tidy all the boxed stuff away and they get it.

They'll soon learn its quicker to put things back in the first place

You do have bigger issues though with regards his comments re food shop.

I'd be sorting that out. Raise expectations for yourself about how you're willing to be treated alongside raising expectations of your children.

They need to be helping, but they need to be helped to help. So explicit instructions not just "who's is this, which no one can see, right i'm binning it".

What age is the right age op? you dont want them moving out and thinking you'll come and do it all so you need to build it up to them being able to do it all

OMG. Yes.

I agree with your DH to a degree but can totally see it from both perspectives. Your DH has acted out of order and telling you that you live like a pig is just a*hole behaviour. Also, the food shopping late thing, what's stopping him from going to do the food shop? He sounds like a nob.

You just said 'but they aren't' capable

Sorry, but they are.

And they do.

But I don't expect them to pick up literally every item their hands touch everyday with such aggression behind it. I do expect as a parent to have to tidy SOME things, or have to prompt them to tidy.

Promoting, not threatening.

Okay I've done that took me a while to figure out how 🤦🏻‍♀️ excuse my ignorance and insult, it wasn't intentional to upset anyone but can now see why it would so I apologize

He is being unreasonable to shout and demand immediate movement to his commands.

I don't understand why he wouldn't put the bowl in the dishwasher rather than the bin, just to prove his power.

His kids will grow up petrified of him and jump every time someone shouts. So if that is what he is aiming for then he is doing a grand job.

How much parenting rather than criticising your parenting does he do?

This is hilarious. What's wrong with a plastic bowl being out?
I'm picturing those bizarre, suburban households where everything is blank and empty and doilies lie on armchairs...
There's nothing wring with items being out and about, as long as they're not everywhere and tripping people up!

My 3 year old tidied up after himself. Given a reasonable timeframe and a bit of cajoling into it but I'd definitely expect older children to pick up after themselves.

Of course they should be tidying up after themselves.

But threatening to throw things away is just boorish and draconian. There are nicer ways to encourage kids to help.

This!

Quite frightening how many comments are about OPs failures as a parent with no mention that her parenting expert DP is equally as responsible for teaching the children.

The children absolutely should be capable of tidying up after themselves, the 9 year old fairly independently with few prompts and the 4.5 year with the odd prompt and bit of help. Their father is being a dick with his approach to it though, and you should have seen the red flags when he spoke to you like a child about leaving your bag out and ditched him then.

At no point in your main post did you say they do tidy up sometimes. In fact let's look at your title.
To NOT expect my DC to clean up after themselves yet

So don't you dare say my post is grossly unfair. You are deliberately manipulating the information to ensure a pile on against your DH. Now that is shameful (of you).

The OP is very different from the later picture but OP you are not being unreasonable to tidy some stuff up or to expect and allow some stuff to linger.

The PP who said they wouldn't allow one crayon to be lying around needs to seriously unclench. My 5 year old is obsessed with writing notes and pictures and has post-its and pens and notebooks scattered everywhere. I'm not going to get her to put them all away to get them out again an hour later. She tidies at the end of the day.

We expect some regular stuff. Shoes always in the shoe basket and coats placed near the hooks (they can't reach the hooks) and stuff back in boxes at the end of the day but otherwise they can make and leave mess and relax in their own home.

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣good luck at trying to change their expectations when you do decide they’re old enough!

and at what age will that be , op?

and you’ll be back here in 12 years time asking how do I get my adult children to clean up, or leave home 🤷🏼‍♀️🤦‍♀️

He is on a power trip and is being abusive.

From what you say about your early relationship it seems likely this is how he was parented.

It’s traumatic for children to have their belongings taken from them by someone on a power trip. The children have no control in it, it is sudden and unexpected, and it is a disproportionate consequence for them - it’s not like they could just buy another one, and they might not be allowed to even if they could.

Kids who experience this kind of power imbalance over-compensate by becoming controlling. This is why I suspect your husband was parented this way. He is repeating the cycle. I recommend breaking the cycle rather than have your own kids grow up with the same abusive controlling tendencies when they are adults.

And, if I understand correctly and you used to literally perform a song and dance to de-escalate his behaviour, you might want to work on your own boundaries and how you react to that type of control. You don’t need to put up with it. I don’t necessarily meant LTB, but maybe you could get some professional help to work on it, jointly or individually.

My friend still has her 4yr old drawing on chairs, walls, etc. So yes if I had a 4yr old I'd be sitting them up to the table to draw and would be putting them away after.

But I have older dc, dc that wash their own clothes, tidy their rooms (when I tell them to) regular chores such as the dishwasher done daily and do pick up after themselves.

That's because they have been expected to tidy up, put things back when they've finished and also want to live in a nice clean and comfortable home. I'd find living in mess and chaos, well chaotic 🤷‍♀️ imagine singing a song instead of tidying up lols, I just couldn't imagine that. It wouldn't be how I'd be happy to live.

Ok, this is all about they’ll do things when “asked”

what are you doing to develop responsibility for themselves, so you don’t ask, they know they’re expected.

the bowl is a tangent and diversion. Your dh is frustrated that he’s having to ask the kids all the time and that you won’t help him (ok, in fairness maybe he’s expecting it to be entirely your repsonsibility) to instil this responsibility in them

there is a well trod pathway and tool box of instilling responsisiblies into kids. Usually involving chore list, reward charts, pocket money and the like.

be constructive, creative and less defensive

1. sit with husband when not stressed and agree chore l8sts for each other- start with yourselves. Make sure you’re doing that first. Can’t remove specks from kids eyes until you’ve both removed yours
2. then agree with husband what takes and chores kids do daily and weekly or monthly. Agree consequences and rewards. Display them, talk kids through. They should obviously be age appropriate. Follow through always. Be consistent. Always back each other up in front of them- take your disagreements elsewhere and fight them out

my fairly hard line appraoch is to remember if kids can use a games counsel, they have more than enough manual dexterity and executive thinking skills to cope with stripping their beds, putting stuff in washing machine, turning a washing machine on to correct settings and taking bloody stuff out again. They are also capable of using a hoover. They’re capable 9f changing loo roles, putting things in height restricted cupboards, and ensuring boxes of toys are put away .

itmosnt a case of them having to do housework- it’s a case of teaching them there are no magic fairies or elves, to give respect to person who does things for them as they know how’s shite cleaning up is, and equipping them with life skills. That’s what parenting is

and if you’re arguing about keep house clean, if you can possibly afford it , get a cleaner. The money is worth it given what it does for harmony between spouses in a household of employed people and kids.

At their age yes they should be cleaning up after themselves

Hmmm. Does your dh clean up the emotional messes he makes throwing his tantrums? Maybe he could work on that first?

All he is doing is connecting the care tasks of household labour to negative feelings and memories. It’s natural then to avoid those tasks in future. Carrying on like that is hugely counter productive.

And it’s probably a big part of why you’re avoiding getting the dc to do these things.

I would encourage you to involve them in a 5 minute pick up every day or a couple of times a day. Chores don’t need to be a big deal - making it low stress, companionable and focusing on making the living space (which includes the emotional atmosphere) nice for everyone is the key to raising kids who pitch in willingly.

You literally spent your thread title and OP typing about how you don't expect them too. And how they can't at their age.

Then posting about how your DH gets annoyed and they take stuff from cupboards and dump it on nearest chair etc rather than putting it back.

Then bay poster who says raise your expectations of your kids you are rude too saying they can tidy up.

Your dh sounds an arse.

But you sound like one too and are hard work.

I'm out of this thread because it's a waste of posters time.

But please communicate with for dh and sort this out for the sake of your children who are probably get mixed messages from a parent who can't decide what they do and don't expect of them and what they can and can't do.

I think you need to discuss with your DH and come up with a workable plan which doesn't include threats to throw stuff away. It's totally reasonable to have certain times when things get tidied, and to expect DCs to help tidy and to put away sets of things when they're finished with.

I agree that it's unreasonable to expect no mess at all with children, but it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect the dining room cleared before each meal for example.