shaming of mothers with a career?!

[rubopp]

Again today I’ve read a thread where a women is criticised for needing childcare when their child is under one.

AIBU to think if we had threads/comments saying ‘why aren’t you in a decent job to provide well for your dc?’, that they would be deleted?

There’s actually lots of evidence that children do well in life and thrive in higher income homes. No, it’s not everything and overall it probably doesn’t matter… just like it doesn’t matter in the long run if someone decides to stay home with their dc until their dc go to school.

What IS this shaming of mothers who dare to have a career?! Jealously? Narrow mindedness?

I find it mind boggling that people think you can take years out of a career and come back to it… in highly successful roles actually you can’t do that. Though I suspect those people who post such nasty things have no idea if they’ve never achieved that themselves.

There’s lots of benefits to being able to fund all your child’s activities, holidays, books, cultural trips especially as they get older and need house deposits, cars etc so let’s not pretend that the only way to raise a child is to live frugally and don’t dare to make anything of yourself.

Rant over.

If you recognise posters from previous threads, then I presume that you keep coming back to this topic yourself. Why is that, if you don't find the discussion important or interesting?

Perhaps some of us aren't trying to "convince" anyone. Perhaps we're just talking about subjects that we want to talk about. If you find the conversation weird, there are plenty of other threads on MN available. Or start one of your own?

Why do people comment on threads about topics that interest them or are relevant to their lives? I can’t imagine.

But what is there to actually say? Why compare yourselves to people who you have no idea about? If you enjoy your job - great. If you want to be a stay-home mum - great. If you have no choice - well that's that then. Or any of the infinite possibilities in between. What more is there to say?

Well, there is plenty more to say as evidenced by the many threads on this topic. I completely agree that it doesn't matter and people should choose whatever lifestyle suits them best, but that's not the point. If they want to discuss their choices, they can!!

You are not the arbiter of what is or isn't a valid conversation on MN. If you aren't interested, you don't have to participate. You don't understand why people want to talk about their lifestyle choices. I don't understand why you would repeatedly hang around taking notes on who is saying what on threads that patently don't interest you. Ultimately, I presume you have your reasons for doing what you do. Other people will have reasons of their own.

Well if you’d read the thread (and many like it), you would know there is a long Mumsnet history where a certain subset of posters are judgemental about women based on their financial and domestic setups and the way they care for their children. (I’m not going to call them “choices” in the MN vernacular because often they are not actually choices.

Some women think it’s damaging to children for women with children to work. Some women think women who stay at home with their children are wasting their lives and making themselves financially vulnerable. Both are reductionist and insulting stereotypes. But because women are insecure about how society perceives their roles as mothers they are very sensitive about this.

The fact that we are sensitive about this and feel defensive tells me it’s a deep seated social issue which affects a lot of women and deserves unpacking and discussion. And actually deserves much wider attention than threads on Mumsnet. It’s one of the most important issues facing women.

It’s very relevant to me and my life. If you don’t think it’s interesting you don’t have to comment. But I’m not going to be told to move along there’s nothing to see, thanks very much.

I think it's ok - people are allowed to have different opinions than others.

Personally, I'd rather be the one caring for my children then trust randoms I've paid. And id rather have less of an income as a result. My children's well-being is a priority over my career and I happen to believe that me being present with my children can't be replaced by activities.

Each for their own. I'm not saying career driven mothers are selfish - I just have a different view of what is good care of children.

That's sad to hear.

I wish motherhood was valued more in western society then perhaps some women wouldn't feel resentful

But are the children really better off?
Lots of boarding school children have money and activities but weird relationships with their parents when they get older and abandonment issues

I don't think society valuing motherhood more would have resolved it for my mum tbh. She was of a generation when SAH with kids was almost universally seen as a positive thing to do, and she does feel that all of the "mothering" she did was really valuable. She doesn't regret that at all - she is very proud of me and dsis and what we have achieved. It's more the stuff that she could have done but didn't that bothered her.

She regrets not having had the opportunity to use her talents more widely, and not having had an impact on the lives of more people. She had a career before marriage that was very focused on helping vulnerable people, and she sees how much more she could have contributed to the world if she had gone back to work after children. That is just her personal view of it, not a value judgement on my part.

I think it has been harder for her in a way as a result of watching me and dsis. Both of us have chosen careers with a social purpose, in which we can make a real difference. But equally, both of us have fantastic relationships with our kids who are clearly thriving, and she has seen that we have managed to have successful careers without having to compromise on the quality of our family lives or the dc's upbringing. And while she is absolutely thrilled for us that this is the case, she understandably wishes that she could have had the same sense of purpose and achievement that Dsis and I get from our work alongside the pride and satisfaction that she had as a mother. Not sure if that makes sense?

This thread is about WOHPs and SAHPs. I'm not sure that boarding school has anything to do with it.

Tbh, @Jellyx, your posts are giving the impression that you consider yourself to be a superior parent because you don't WOH. It isn't very interesting.

And fwiw, I never trusted "randoms" to look after my child either. It's a shame that you feel the need to phrase things in this way. Are you having a bit of a dig at WOHPs because you are feeling a bit inadequate or something? There is nothing wrong with being a SAHP if it works for you and your family, and you don't have to justify the decision by picking at the choices others have made.

Tell me you think “career mothers” are selfish without telling me you think career mothers are selfish….

You have basically just dumped all the ill informed and judgmental little cliches about “career mothers” as you put them, into one neat little post. This is exactly what the OP means.

It’s not about choosing to have less income. For me it would be choosing to have no income. Because there is no one else who provides that income. It’s just me. So there is no such choice.

Also fuck off with “my children’s wellbeing is a priority”. I choose to prioritise my child by working long hours to put food on the table. Would walking out of a job really be prioritising my child? I can’t believe people like you genuinely can’t understand that for some people “prioritising my child” does mean working.

And as for leaving children with “randoms”: my child is with a qualified, DBS checked childminder who has known her eight years.

You say you have a different view of what is good care for children. What you actually have is an incredibly privileged and short sighted set of prejudices which completely ignore economic reality.

Don't let her get to you @Thepeopleversuswork. This kind of shit is always spouted on these threads. To be fair, there is shit that gets spouted the other way. It's usually insecurity on either side.

Those of us who know that we're doing the best for our children - whether WOHP or SAHP - don't need to get sucked in to the nonsense.

It's a shame that we can't have honest and genuine discussions about this subject, which is still a challenging issue for many women, without the need for the not-so-subtle digs.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves

Parents can make their own decisions.
Personally I'd prefer to be at home - that's a luxury a few can afford or are willing to sacrifice their career for.

If you think it's better to have a career and that's better for your children then go for it.

I'm just not convinced the research says that's better for children but each to their own.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves

You are right and I’m sorry if that was intemperate and rude. And you are right that there are equally unpleasant stereotypes about SAHMs.

But I’m fucked if I’m going to be told I am not prioritising my child because I have to work to support her, by someone who who has the luxury of not having to work.

@Thepeopleversuswork
I'm saying I'd rather live on a tight budget and be at home with my children.
It's a choice and a better one IMHO. Like i said - we're all allowed to have different views and make different choices.

Plenty of inspection reports are not accurate.

You're view of prioritising children is going to work. Mine isn't.

We both have different views of what 'prioritising well-being' looks like and that's ok.

I don’t think you are understanding what I’m saying at all. I don’t have a choice. I’m a lone parent so there’s no one else who can support her.

What would you say to parents like me? How do I “prioritise my child”? Given that someone needs to put food on the table.

I’m genuinely interested to hear what I ought to do.

I'm a sahm and I'd certainly not shame a career mum for carrying on her career and having her child in nursery. I chose to not carry on with working when I had my kids but I don't think that makes me a better parent than the mums who work . All that matters is children are taken care of well .

Women get judged, whatever we do, often by other women. I was able to stay home with my children for 10 years due to personal / financial circumstances, and it was great for our family to have such an stress-free life. But equally if I’d gone back to work my kids would have been fine too. As it is my career is fucked, but I have a job at least.

I’ve just spent the afternoon with my mum bending my ear about all my old school friends who are now ‘high-flying’ this and ‘very high-faluting’ that. It’s quite clear she wishes she could boast about me too but unf I’m not in that position. This is the same mum who congratulated me for staying home as she felt my younger sister suffered when she (my mum) went back to work when she was quite young. 🤷‍♀️. Can’t win.

You're view of prioritising children is going to work. Mine isn't.

Why don't you prioritise paying for food, clothes and shelter for children?

Thank you but I don't actually need your permission to maintain my career.

It's irrelevant now in any case as my dd is now an adult. There are only two possible measures, in my view, of the quality of my parenting. One is how my dd has turned out... and I couldn't be prouder of that. The other is what she thinks of her upbringing and of the quality of the relationship that we have with her... and she is very clear that she will be maintaining her own career after having kids because she has seen that it's perfectly possible to be a great mum and have a rewarding job.

I don't really care whether you're "convinced" that the research says WOH or SAH is better or not. I am perfectly capable of reading research for myself and don't need you to interpret it for me. As it happens, I read plenty of research when dd was younger, and I found it very reassuring in terms of being confident that WOH would not damage her in any way. But as I say, that's irrelevant now because my dd is an adult, and the only "proof" I need that I did a bloody good job is right in front of me.

I am truly sorry if you have felt belittled by people having a go at SAHMs. I think it's a perfectly valid choice if it suits you (and your husband if you have one) and if you can afford it. I don't think that money is all important, and as I've said above, I think there are multiple ways of living a "good life". But please, find value in what you're doing for yourself and your family by all means, but quit trying to boost your self esteem by making nasty digs about WOHMs on the Internet. You can do better than that.

@Thepeopleversuswork

Honestly - if I could avoid being a single parent by choosing a good father I would. Now I understand there's abuse and plenty of absent men.
But honestly if my choice in partner was a factor I'd be upset..

I don't think you have a choice. It just isn't ideal and outcomes , for children, from single parent households aren't as good. That's a fact. Hopefully you have good extended family and a community as I can only imagine how stressful that is.

I'm not saying single parents are crap but the reality is another good parent would make a difference.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves
It's not boosting my self esteem - people here are slagging my view off.

The point of the forum is to share different views - mine is different than yours. I'm not name calling or making accusations against you for having a different view.

We both do what we think is best and that might look different.

Your perception of what is happening on this thread is not accurate at all. I'm not sure if that's because you're wilfully misinterpreting what is going on here in order to push your own agenda or whether you're just not very good at processing what people have written.

Nobody is slagging you off here or telling you that you shouldn't parent in the way that you want to. They are merely reacting to your insulting characterisation of working mothers and your smug statement that you think your way is "better".

There is no "better" here, because each family is different. It isn't a competition. You don't get to win a medal because you stayed at home with your kids. The only thing that matters is that kids grow up healthy, happy and reach their full potential. And kids can do that regardless of whether their mothers work or not.. you can argue against that point all you like but the evidence doesn't support you I'm afraid.

Do what you like with your own kids, nobody cares. But stop trying to make yourself feel good by bitching about the choices made by other people. And fwiw, please note that my comment about you trying to boost your self esteem was the generous interpretation of what you're doing. The alternative would be to conclude that you're just smug, ignorant and vindictive. Take your pick.

@Jellyx

I'm not saying single parents are crap but the reality is another good parent would make a difference.

Well, but again, you kind of are saying single parents are crap without saying they are crap. You seem to specialise in this sort of backhanded insult. Your post is generally quite hard to understand but that's what I'm taking away from it as you don't seem to be answering the question I've asked.

Again, given that I am a single parent, I'm not quite sure how this comment is supposed to help me and people like me. You don't seem to have any practical about how I should put food on my child's table and clothes on her back without working. Other than to passive aggressively tell me I'm a bit crap.

Can you understand why people like me and the OP think we're being got at by people like you?

And again, what should single parents be doing to support their children if working mothers are frowned upon? You could be forgiven for thinking we can't win.