shaming of mothers with a career?!

[rubopp]

Again today I’ve read a thread where a women is criticised for needing childcare when their child is under one.

AIBU to think if we had threads/comments saying ‘why aren’t you in a decent job to provide well for your dc?’, that they would be deleted?

There’s actually lots of evidence that children do well in life and thrive in higher income homes. No, it’s not everything and overall it probably doesn’t matter… just like it doesn’t matter in the long run if someone decides to stay home with their dc until their dc go to school.

What IS this shaming of mothers who dare to have a career?! Jealously? Narrow mindedness?

I find it mind boggling that people think you can take years out of a career and come back to it… in highly successful roles actually you can’t do that. Though I suspect those people who post such nasty things have no idea if they’ve never achieved that themselves.

There’s lots of benefits to being able to fund all your child’s activities, holidays, books, cultural trips especially as they get older and need house deposits, cars etc so let’s not pretend that the only way to raise a child is to live frugally and don’t dare to make anything of yourself.

Rant over.

I didn't say there was anything wrong with having a career - can you not read? I said I have no time for people who think a career and having shed loads of income is the only way to have a good life. It is possible to have a career and yet not make it the only focus of your life.

Right. So you don’t think women with families should be CEOs, or scientists, or newspaper editors or foreign correspondents or diplomats or chief technologists or run hospitals or do any of those things that take time (and yes, pay well)?

That's not what she said, to be fair.

Women on both sides of this situation do certainly get shamed. There are unfair and inaccurate cliches employed both against SAHMs and WOHMs.

Having been on the receiving end of comments like “you’ll never get the time back” and other moronic little homilies for ten years I’m pretty hardened to it and if I am honest there are some pretty patronising assumptions made about SAHMs (they never use their brains etc).

I have to say though that I think the anti working mum camp wins hands down on sheer stupidity. How can someone not understand that a single parent or breadwinner cannot simply walk out of a job just because they want to be with their children. It should be breathtakingly simple to understand but still you get people piping up to accuse you of “farming out” your kids on here.

I just think we need to take the level of critical understanding up a few notches.

I agree. As soon as the word "dumped" is used (as in, my kids were never "dumped" in nursery) I write the poster off.

Yeah these types never seem to be quite so mouthy about their opinions when they turn up with their sick kid to an emergency department or intensive care unit and find it staffed, mostly by people with young children being cared for by someone else. They seem to feel a lot more positive about parents having careers then.

I certainly hope my girls have children and a career.
The difference is putting your baby first if you can until they are as old as possible?..

Why pose things in such a black and white extreme way eg a woman's life would be ruined and we wouldn't have female doctors if they stayed with their actual " babies" as much as they can.

In an entire lifetime of work, decades and decades with working age pushed further and further back I cannot fathom why anyone thinks taking a year or two out to look after your own babies would put your career at risk.

If that's the case that's the bigger issue

I think that mums are judged and criticised no matter what they choose to do and it’s incredibly annoying.

My situation is the opposite to yours. I chose to put my career on the back burner when I had my children because that’s what felt right for me.

Despite being financially comfortable and incredibly happy spending my time at playgroups, parks and planning activities, people still do the faux concern head tilt…

The most annoying question is “Oh are you not bored! I’d hate not using my brain everyday” (I’m pretty sure I work harder at looking after my children than I have ever done at in a job, or my MA degree for that matter).

Then I have friends who regularly face judgement for choosing to work… especially if their partner has an ‘impressive’ job. As if their hard work isn’t worth anything because it’s not needed to put food on the table.

I’m lucky to have the choice between working and staying home, I know that. But nobody should be judged for their choices on whether to work when their children are small. Especially when the only stay at home dad I know gets a ridiculous amount of praise for doing the same thing thousands of mums do everyday. And very few dads are judged for working on improving their career.

No, but it’s the implication of suggesting that women with families should only ever prioritise work that doesn’t take up too much of their time. Some careers require dedication and, yes, time commitment. Take the example given above of someone working in ER - they work long hours with little flexibility. Should women with families not do this?

I must say that in terms of the benefit children derive from having parents at home my experience has been the opposite - that babies needs are much more easily met, it’s now my kids are a bit older that they need and want me more. Taking a year off is just maternity leave, if you want to take an extra year off, sure. I’m not convinced that putting children in good quality childcare really makes a huge difference either way (and certainly the Nordic countries back this up, where it is really rare to not be in childcare from 1 onwards). In any event, I don’t think that’s what people are talking about on this thread.

Stealth, all the usual caveats aside of course babies need their mums /care givers as much as possible.

When children are older they go to nursery so their needs are being met and mixed up with nursery as in activities and parents.

I agree with you OP. In my experience of mumsnet only low to mid earners (who can’t afford to pay for childcare or whose jobs aren’t flexible) become full time housewives after the baby is born. Higher earners rarely do because they don’t need to - we tend to get more flexibility and better benefits on top of the money.

Well, I'm certainly not going to argue that women shouldn't do demanding roles. As a female CEO whose daughter is about to embark on a medicine degree, clearly I'm not going to argue that women should have small jobs that don't take up too much of their time.

I don't think that's what the poster was saying though. She was merely making the point that a successful career which requires lots of dedication isn't the only way of leading a good life. And I agree with her.

And fwiw, I don't think men or women with "big" jobs should focus on career to the exclusion of all else. Balance is healthy and we would do better to change our working culture to allow everyone to have a better balance between work and other aspects of their lives, rather than forcing people to choose between all-consuming careers or giving up. There is a middle way, and as a woman in a senior leadership role, I see promoting that balance as an important responsibility. For everyone, not just for working mums.

It only happens on forums such as this. My favourite is the assumption that women only work because they have to. I love earning my own money and having a career. My friends are all on the same wave length so I never experience any negativity in real life. And I wouldn’t care if I did- I’m happy with my life choices and so are my family.

I think you’re right but there can only be equality of childcare when both men and women work. I don’t think it’s fair to expect sole breadwinners (male or female) to be doing 50/50 childcare and housework. These people need to work harder (especially if they’re on 100k+ salaries just to keep their families afloat.

I don’t disagree with any of that. But the original post spoke of feeling “sorry” for people (women) who prioritised career. As a female CEO I’m sure you’re familiar with those weeks when you simply have to - of course you aim for balance over time (not sure our male counterparts necessarily do) but it’s not always possible for your kids to be priority no 1 at every moment. There is a real tone on these threads of that somehow being selfish and morally suspect. I don’t agree with it. (But I also don’t care about it - I have my own life as a senior exec and im very happy with it and my kids are too).

I don't think she did actually say that she felt sorry for women who prioritised their career, or indeed for their children. I think she said that she felt sorry for people who thought that was the only way of leading a good life. I don't think that's unfair...if woken choose to prioritise their careers, then it should be a proper choice and not because they are unable to see any alternatives.

I have seen lots of stupid posters on here over the years expressing pity for the children of working mothers, and I hold those posters in the utmost contempt. I just don't think that's what the pp was saying.

@stealthbanana

I agree. There’s an unpleasant undertone that crops up in a lot of these threads around how morally vacuous it is to enjoy your career, as if liking your career is an attempt to fill an emotional hole.

You get these silly “no one on their deathbed ever regretted not working more” etc. The assumption is that work is always driven by greed or avarice or a desire for a certain unsustainable lifestyle etc.

It’s all very gendered. It takes as read that women don’t really need to work and that their motives for doing so are suspect and against their children’s interests. And it implies that men’s motives for work are inherently nobler.

No one ever tells men they will regret having worked too hard on their deathbeds.

Actually, one of my mother's greatest regrets is that she didn't spend more time working. She gave up her career to SAH with us as children because that was sort of the done thing back in those days, and she then lost all of her confidence and never got it back. At 80, she deeply regrets not having maintained her career - she feels like she wasted her talent and potential and that she could have done so much more with her life.

Of course, some people quit their careers and are perfectly happy and fulfilled doing other things, but yes, I too get very annoyed by people who bang on about people on their deathbed regretting time spent at work. My work is hugely important and meaningful to me and it enables me to make a real and lasting contribution to society that reaches well beyond my own family and friends. Why would I regret that?

No one ever tells men they will regret having worked too hard on their deathbeds.

Course they do, to workaholics and the like, who don't have a good work/life balance.
And there are men too who in old age have regretted all the hours they spent in the office.

I do know several women who regret not making more of a mark in the world, whether through paid work or not. One is in her eighties now, and she just didn't take her chance with carrying on with acting when she got pregnant and ended up doing very little work, in the end her pension was compromised by not having done enough years (which you can rectify if you know this). My mid-life friends are all contemplating what they've done and a couple feel regret they took the compromise job or p/t work that has ended up being very boring. That said, it worked for them at the time and I think it's easy to look back and imagine things would have been different, but maybe it would have been difficult in different ways (time, energy). It is hard though if you hit fifties having never felt interested in your work, especially if you have many years to go before retirement.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves

Actually, one of my mother's greatest regrets is that she didn't spend more time working. She gave up her career to SAH with us as children because that was sort of the done thing back in those days, and she then lost all of her confidence and never got it back.

Mine too. I could have written this about my own mother. She bitterly regretted giving up her career and was extremely resentful of the fact she never really got her mojo back after having children. She drummed into me the idea that I would also regret it if I didn’t have a career and she was right.

Yep, my mum drilled that into me and dsis too. I am very grateful for it tbh.

But no one tells working fathers they only work to buy more shoes and handbags, which is one of the more common accusations thrown at working mums.

Pretty sure no one would tell a breadwinning father to just chuck in a job and not pay the mortgage for a bit. Oh, but it will all work out because you won’t have to “farm your kids out to childcare”. Nah. People don’t say that to men.

Why is it always the same people saying the same repetitive things on these threads? Every. Single. Time. Who are they really trying to convince? None of this matters at all and the comparisons are pointless. Everyone is in totally different circumstances and people seem hell bent on taking offence at nothing. It's very weird.