shaming of mothers with a career?!

[rubopp]

Again today I’ve read a thread where a women is criticised for needing childcare when their child is under one.

AIBU to think if we had threads/comments saying ‘why aren’t you in a decent job to provide well for your dc?’, that they would be deleted?

There’s actually lots of evidence that children do well in life and thrive in higher income homes. No, it’s not everything and overall it probably doesn’t matter… just like it doesn’t matter in the long run if someone decides to stay home with their dc until their dc go to school.

What IS this shaming of mothers who dare to have a career?! Jealously? Narrow mindedness?

I find it mind boggling that people think you can take years out of a career and come back to it… in highly successful roles actually you can’t do that. Though I suspect those people who post such nasty things have no idea if they’ve never achieved that themselves.

There’s lots of benefits to being able to fund all your child’s activities, holidays, books, cultural trips especially as they get older and need house deposits, cars etc so let’s not pretend that the only way to raise a child is to live frugally and don’t dare to make anything of yourself.

Rant over.

@CwmYoy you must work in a great industry (genuinely). Our careers would be massively damaged if we took that time out.

Women can't win whatever we do. That's what I've concluded.

Whatever choice you make, for whatever reason and with whatever provisions you have made, there will always be someone to tell you you should have done it differently (properly/better)...

Massive case of confirmation bias if you’ve failed to notice the many threads that belittle and criticise mums that don’t work/work very part time and choose to compromise their careers because they want to spend more time with their children. Even more so if the individual is relying on any form or state support/trapped in an unhappy relationship. Posters can get extremely nasty

They outnumber those which belittle working mums by a mile

I have been both over the course of preschool years so have no skin in the game

Unfortunately women can’t do right for doing wrong.

Well OP, your own post is just as judgemental. It comes down the age old issue of women judging other women.

insecure about their own life choices. People who are happy and content with their own lives don't needlessly criticise others, so mostly I just feel sorry for those kind of posters as they are obviously living a life they aren't happy with

@Hugasauras This is it.

Anyone who feels the need to criticize someone's decision to work (or to stay home and not work - it goes both ways) is inadvertently revealing that they're not as happy with their own decisions as they claim.

I'm very happy and fortunate to be able to balance my career and my family commitments well but I recognise that I have a lot of advantages that others don't like a high household income, good health, supportive husband who can work flexible hours and incredible family support. If I didn't have these things I might have been forced to give up or scale back on my own career. People need to do what works best for them and their families, it's no one else's business.

I 100% agree with you. My salary pays for all the extras teens and pre-teens want ..a certain type of trainers, money for the cinema. They know I work hard for these things and they really appreciate it. taking them for free picnics and trips to the park doesn’t cut it when they’re older!

For a lot of us it’s not even to have a higher income household, it’s to pay a mortgage on a house that was bought on the basis of two incomes and a few extras like swimming lessons a UK holiday.
I’ve never been willing to be financially dependent on a man; it gives me far more personal security to know I could leave and be ok

I wish it wasn’t a ‘hit’.

I wish we had generous paternal and maternity leave. I wish that child rearing was something that had value. I wish that men were not simultaneously canonised by some for taking longer paternal leave, and picked on by macho types for not leaving it to their wives. I wish that women had iron-clad maternal rights and their jobs were kept for 2 years like in Finland. I want flexible working and home working and a society that is family friendly.

Unfortunately we are not set up for that and the majority of parents need two incomes and times are tough. The solution is just a demand for industrialised,
poorly funded and poorly paid childcare- rather than actually making a society that works better for families.

People constantly bang on about Sweden and Finland and the like and their cheap childcare, spectacularly missing the point that very few 9 month old babies are in full time childcare 8-6. It’s not normal there like it is here. Most will have a part time working parent, or a grandparent on a fat state pension providing lots of care. Or women will take their full maternity leave with a big chuck of paternal leave tacked on at the end. Because these societies VALUE a good family life.

(and Sorry to piss on your chips- but I’m a well educated and previously well-paid woman who can go back to my career in a year or so with very little hindrance.

These 3 years are a tiny snapshot of my life, and I’m really enjoying them. But various circumstances dictate that, and I’m lucky. Lots of people would find it lonely and shite. It’s not for everyone.)

I think, from what I've seen and heard on here and out in the world, people will just take any opportunity they can to criticise mothers in general.

You can't win at all. I was criticised for having my daughter young, for relying heavily on my (completely willing!) family for help with her, for choosing to go back to school and get myself into a career, for only having one child and sticking with that decision, the list goes on.

People just love to tell mums all the ways they suck at being both mothers and women. And some of the absolute worst culprits are other women.

My mum likes to poke the stick on this one.
EG I told her that my DD is at a summer camp this week that takes about 100 kids aged between 5 and 10 and she said - inexplicably - "oh poor little thing". What?! She loves it! But what my mum means is "you should be spending every minute of your life with her instead of working all the time" (as if i could just randomly stop working and we'd still be able to pay the mortgage that keeps a roof the kids' heads)
It's infuriating. Just ignore and move on.

You don't even need to have a high career for this to happen.

I work in childcare and have been asked so many times these past two weeks, "Where are your children? Who's looking after them? Are you not booking time off to spend with your children?"

I only work 2-3 days a week. On all the days I'm not working I'm with them including weekends. I'm basically off with them anyway.

During the busy term times I then get told I'm a part timer, lady who lunches.

You can't win.

its a fact not universally acknowledged that each of us chooses ( or has no choice due to economic reasons) how much to compromise career versus how much to compromise the children’s upbringing. To

I’ve never experienced it. My friends both work and some stayed home for chunks of they’d kids childhood never once judged them, never felt judged by them. When it happens online which it occasionally does I respect that people with issues is about themselves and nothing whatsoever to do with me.

I find it mind boggling that people think you can take years out of a career and come back to it… in highly successful roles actually you can’t do that. Though I suspect those people who post such nasty things have no idea if they’ve never achieved that themselves.

Speaking of nasty......

Sorry OP, I don’t know what planet you’re in to say this. ALL mothers are shamed, frequently and widely.

I think this is true. It wouldn't matter what you did someone would have an unfavourable opinion about it so stop letting it bother you and do what's best for you and your family.

People don’t say these things yet they could. We don’t shame women who choose to stay at home.

🤣🤣🤣
Honestly, one of the worst things you can do on MN is stay at home to bring up your own kids 🙄
Give up your independence
Rely on a man (it's always a man....)
Ruin your future
Rely on benefits (even if you don't)
Can't be intelligent because life with kids is sooo boring and you never have any stimulating conversation

Oh and did I mention relying on a man....

Hmm, I didn’t agree with this part either but for this reason: the women I know who have become SAHMs left successful careers and their husbands are also successful - hence they became SAHMs as they earn enough to not be affected too much by the entire loss of an income.

I do think it’s a shortsighted criticism though and failing to understand someone else’s circumstances. Eg A woman might not have a choice to be a SAHM or have a maternity leave lasting beyond the full pay period because of finances, no family support to help with nursery pick ups, mental health or postnatal depression which makes them want to go back to work, the cost of nursery being more than they earn (yes, I know there are many benefits of work) etc… The list goes in. I’m sure all circumstances have already been covered many times throughout the thread.

But surely being rude about women who have decided to be SAHMs is not much better than being rude about women who decide not to be?

Meh, my dd and her friends are all young adults now, and you really can't tell the difference between those who had WOHMs, SAHMs or something in between. One group is not happier, healthier or successful than the other.

It really doesn't matter what people do, as long as they provide a loving and supportive home for their children - the kids will be absolutely fine either way. So women should do whatever works best for themselves (and their partners where relevant).

Your last line sums up exactly what I was trying to say back there - I completely agree with you.

Basically all women get shamed:

Mothers who work
Mothers who stay at home
Women who have the temerity not to have children

No one bothers themselves about fathers who work or men who don't reproduce. And if a father stays at home to bring up his child he's feted like a bloody hero.

I don't feel that I compromised on either, personally.

I find this thread goady too OP.
Not your point - of course mothers should be able to choose what to do without shame - but the way you said it.
Referring to SAHMs as people who "don’t dare to make anything of yourself"?
Not nice.
As someone who's spent time at home I can tell you now the shaming goes in both directions (as you've so aptly illustrated).

YANBU for saying women who choose to use fulltime childcare options should not be shamed.

YABU for equating "career" with high income. There will be plenty of scenarios where a woman needs FT childcare but isn't raking it in.

Access to high quality, affordable childcare to enable parents to earn a decent wage, achieve work-family balance, and contribute to society / the economy are things we should all be demanding.

There's also the employer issue: exactly why can't an extended career break be taken? Other than simply tradition / expectations based on men = earner, woman = carer. Who says you can't take a few years off and come back at the same level? Why not?

"Women who don't have certain types of jobs which are well paid but aren't generally amenable to career breaks are envious of me and the money I make" is a take on this issue as bad and divisive as (e.g.) "no-one should put their child in nursery before one".

It's lucky you're not nasty or judgemental OP like those other mums who could never aspire to reach the dizzying heights you have in their career.

I'm not jealous of your career, I'm only envious of people who are genuinely really happy in life and you don't sound like one of those people.

I think the simple answer to this question is ALL mothers are shamed. Be it SAHM, or WM. It could be jealousy that the WM feels she has to go out to provide this certain lifestyle and wishes she could stay home and spend time with her much loved children. But on the flip reverse the SAHM may wish she could provide more of a "comfortable" lifestyle for her children but a minimum wage job would barely cover childcare so there isn't really any point in her working.
One thing you have to remember OP is that this country wouldn't run on only people who are "successful" or have "made something of themselves", it runs on the minimum wage workers doing the shitty jobs that the high earners don't want to do.

This society shames everyone for everything, but unfortunately women get the brunt of it, and we are also pretty bad for shaming each other. This is a very deep rooted and complex issue in society, not one that I think we're going to get to the bottom of on MN.

Although I think maybe we can all agree that we are just doing what we think is right for our children in our individual lives.