shaming of mothers with a career?!

[rubopp]

Again today I’ve read a thread where a women is criticised for needing childcare when their child is under one.

AIBU to think if we had threads/comments saying ‘why aren’t you in a decent job to provide well for your dc?’, that they would be deleted?

There’s actually lots of evidence that children do well in life and thrive in higher income homes. No, it’s not everything and overall it probably doesn’t matter… just like it doesn’t matter in the long run if someone decides to stay home with their dc until their dc go to school.

What IS this shaming of mothers who dare to have a career?! Jealously? Narrow mindedness?

I find it mind boggling that people think you can take years out of a career and come back to it… in highly successful roles actually you can’t do that. Though I suspect those people who post such nasty things have no idea if they’ve never achieved that themselves.

There’s lots of benefits to being able to fund all your child’s activities, holidays, books, cultural trips especially as they get older and need house deposits, cars etc so let’s not pretend that the only way to raise a child is to live frugally and don’t dare to make anything of yourself.

Rant over.

Some of us have no desire to enter that competition though, and have managed not to. Each to their own.

I don't think it is simply that men don't get shamed.

An example I have seen numerous times at work. A woman wants to leave early to go to child's sports day/parents evening/school fete. Colleagues' eyes roll. A man does the same thing and he is applauded.

If a woman has a child it is assumed she will take her career less seriously. It is assumed she will be less interested in participating in career enhancing projects especially if these will involve travel or longer working hours. She won't be asked, this will just be assumed.

If a man has a child it is assumed he will take his career more seriously (he has his family to provide for). He will be offered career enhancing projects. It will be assumed that he won't need to make new childcare arrangements.

I have witnessed and also discussed this with senior managers. All have admitted they make these assumptions.

I agree that this thread is one big shaming of SAHM. Three posts in and we have,
""It’s also being a good role model to work.""

It does also shame low income families, but at least the consensus is that those kids are fucked. So those families are definitely in the wrong. Some people, including those who have children, work and just about cover their bills, while living in, shock! horror! rented accommodation.

I think some women genuinely believe that being at home for the children is best and indeed, they make fantastic SAHM.

Then there are those whose incentive is to not work so convince themselves or is better for the kids. These are the one who dread the summer holidays.

You also have working mums who strongly believe that providing a good income is best for their kids and kids can be happy in childcare arrangements.

Others go back because they feel they don't have a choice but would give anything to be able to be SAHM.

Mums come in all kind of shape and form!

""If a woman has a child it is assumed she will take her career less seriously. It is assumed she will be less interested in participating in career enhancing projects especially if these will involve travel or longer working hours. She won't be asked, this will just be assumed.""

That started when I was on an access course as a mature student. The part time students were told that the funded trip to Copenhagen was just for full time students. When it was over we found out that all the male part time students went. We were told that it wasn't offered to us because we had children, but so did the men. That was 1996.

Tbh, it never really occurred to me that I was "competing" with other families. I'm grateful that we can afford the things that are important to us as a family, but I really couldn't care less what other people do. Maybe that is part of the luxury of feeling that we have enough money to do the stuff we want to do, but I really don't think that many people view it as a competition. Of course, people on lower incomes might be frustrated if their options are limited at times, but then again, some may have simply made different lifestyle choices in accordance with their own personal values.

We are quite comfortable financially but we don't have an extravagant lifestyle - we live in a very ordinary house, drive a very ordinary car etc. That stuff just isn't very important to us. I'm sure that lots of people on lower incomes feel the same.

Is this a TAAT or an excuse to shit on those without successful careers?

About a month ago one of the school mums asked me if I thought I was a bit of a workaholic and if it was good for the kids. I work Mon-Fri, and am out of the house 8–6pm. I was like, would you ask my husband if he's a workaholic and damaging the kids?

I’ve never come across this anywhere. But then I live in London where every mother I know is back to working full-time as soon as their baby is 1 (and often before then).

There’s really no such thing as a “career woman” these days, it would be like saying “career man”.

100% this

Would be lovely if everyone didn’t have an opinion. I often think things are said in defence of their own choices - I couldn’t possibly dump my child in a nursery or it’s mind boring just being a SAHP.

Actually sh up - no need to explain either choice own it and know regardless you are doing the best for your children.

Fathers never get this - they are praised at times for just showing up occasionally. That needs to change.

For me to achieve both a career and be a good parent, we had to work as a team. My husband has stepped up and we both equally been around for the sick days and the holidays etc. I’m fed up hearing that the father couldn’t possibly do that he earns the more money or is to important……it’s crap its an excuse being used far to long. I have friends who are doctors and both parents together work out who does what. Another friends husband has a very senior position - he has time blocked out in his diary for school pick up - no one says a thing.

Now it amazes me that one busy working father can’t possibly help his wife …yet can go off to do his hobby most days…. It’s mums work after all ….I won’t say what we call him.

It’s funny you mention overseas trips. The mothers I work with are super ambitious but also LOVE a break from their kids, so they actually engineer overseas business trips - like insisting meetings with US clients are held in person in New York rather than virtually, or attending completely inessential conferences around the world in order to “network”.

If anything, overseas trips should be offered to parents first!

And I guess that's another way in which we're all different. I hated the idea of leaving my dc overnight when she was little- we co-slept, and I was still breastfeeding until she was nearly 3. So when I had to travel for work, we engineered it so that all of us went together.

I am absolutely not judging those who feel the need for a break. I have no doubt that their kids are perfectly happy and well cared for while they are away. I just wasn't ready to leave her overnight at that stage.

It's incredibly irritating that woman shame other woman for the choices they make. I've only ever had negative comments off other women for my choices.

What’s interesting though is that dads appear not to come in the same variety of all shapes & forms. Why is that? It’s naive to blame it all on biology - women are making massive trade offs based on an underlying societal assumption that it’s a woman’s job to figure out how to raise children, and if she wants/needs to work it’s for her to make the compromises to make this happen.

I’m helping to organise 2 days of client meetings in Leeds right now. The two directors (one male, one female) have two kids under 5 each, and they are the most insistent that these meetings take place in person, that they start at 9am so that they have to travel up from London the night before, get an extra uninterrupted night’s sleep in a nice hotel, have a nice team dinner etc.

I (child-free) would quite happily take an early morning train and not lose an evening with DP to a ‘work dinner’, but they’re more senior than me so they call the shots.

I too never judge any parent for wanting a break from their children - it sounds like the most brutal job in the world.

@rubopp

It seems to me that mumsnet is much more critical of SAHMs! It's also important to remember that most people aren't going out to work in "highly successful roles" to provide for activities, books,cultural trips and house deposits, but to ordinary run of the mill jobs to provide a roof and 3 meals a day. And some people choose to "live frugally" because they feel that being at home with young children is actually "making something of themselves" So, maybe think before you rant.

Women are shamed and criticised whatever they do. It’s one of the worst things about our society.

I agree with this. I think SAHM get it way worse and I say that as someone who has not taken any career breaks following having my kids ( outside of maternity leave).

But also yep working mums get berated as well. To be honest only seen this online in real life I have never encountered either. I'm very much of the opinion that you do you

Why is that?
Because it's a cultural stereotyping assumption that men should work to support his family financially.

Men who are sahd whose wife work and earns well get the finger pointed at them too.

I get this - it’s always the parents (including me) who want overnight stays at my work, because the thought of an early start is so much worse when you don’t have sleep in the bank.

Mind you, my sleep problems aren’t really because of my children so many I’m talking rubbish.

Most (not all) of the negative comments that I have seen over the years have been online. In RL, I find most women quite supportive - my friends are a complete mix of having worked, SAHed etc, and none of us really care in the slightest.

Of course, I realise that people online exist in RL too, so maybe some of those friends are secretly criticising each other online but I honestly think most of us are too busy getting on with our own lives to care that much about what other people do.

I do have friends who have been made to feel incredibly guilty about working, and that makes me cross. My own mum was very unhappy as a SAHM and I don't think anyone should feel like they have to give up their career to be a good parent. But equally, I don't think people have to have a career to be a valuable member of society. I think the best parents are the ones who are lucky enough to be happy with their own lives...I know from my own experience that growing up with an unhappy parent is not always easy. Of course, some people have no control over their situations and the very last thing that they need is people standing in judgment over things that they didn't even have a choice about. The vast majority of us are doing our very best for our children, whatever our family set-up is, and usually, that is enough.

Why is everything 'shaming' these days?

Someone posts something and if there isn't a unanimous and fulsome reception of people pissing themselves with joy, it's shaming.

'Mild criticism' just doesn't have the same drama, does it?

Most (not all) of the negative comments that I have seen over the years have been online. In RL, I find most women quite supportive - my friends are a complete mix of having worked, SAHed etc, and none of us really care in the slightest.

Three people who criticised me and come to mind - my mother; my dad's wife; random guard at the train station.

My mother - I should have done my duty and stayed at home to raise children like she did. I was a single parent (not by choice) and so who exactly did she think was going to pay for him?

My dad's wife - constant talk of the fact the children of working women are less well behaved at school (they're not); lower achievers (again, they're not) and wholly responsible for various other ills in society (eg children of working mothers are more likely to be criminals etc - in case it needs saying, they're not)

Random guard - a train I needed to catch to pick my son up from the childminders was repeatedly delayed. I had a bit of a moan to myself about being late to the childminder's because I was feeling a bit anxious about it - not to anyone else and it certainly wasn't the guards fault! But he overheard and made a sarky comment about how I should have perhaps thought of that before I let someone else raise my kid - selfish women working and putting themselves before their children.

I suspect they'd all have had equally scathing criticisms had I been on benefits 🤷🏻‍♀️

But, like you, I know many women who've made all combinations of choices through freedom and necessity. No judgement in either direction.

I'm sorry that you had to endure shitty comments from your own family. I was very fortunate in having my own mum as my biggest cheerleader - she really regretted SAH as it didn't suit her, so she wanted me and DSis to do what was right for us. I am truly grateful for that.