shaming of mothers with a career?!

[rubopp]

Again today I’ve read a thread where a women is criticised for needing childcare when their child is under one.

AIBU to think if we had threads/comments saying ‘why aren’t you in a decent job to provide well for your dc?’, that they would be deleted?

There’s actually lots of evidence that children do well in life and thrive in higher income homes. No, it’s not everything and overall it probably doesn’t matter… just like it doesn’t matter in the long run if someone decides to stay home with their dc until their dc go to school.

What IS this shaming of mothers who dare to have a career?! Jealously? Narrow mindedness?

I find it mind boggling that people think you can take years out of a career and come back to it… in highly successful roles actually you can’t do that. Though I suspect those people who post such nasty things have no idea if they’ve never achieved that themselves.

There’s lots of benefits to being able to fund all your child’s activities, holidays, books, cultural trips especially as they get older and need house deposits, cars etc so let’s not pretend that the only way to raise a child is to live frugally and don’t dare to make anything of yourself.

Rant over.

Because motherhood is a toxic competition

You're saying women don't get shamed for staying at home while shaming women for staying at home. SAHMs get shamed on here more often because the majority of us on here seem to be working mothers.

I took a years maternity with both mine but needed to go back although I would have liked to have taken a couple of years out but it just wasn't possible.

My Mother was an accountant though in a managerial role and she took 4 years out when my sister and I were little and went back still the higher earner, so it's not true that all women can't take a break.

In real life I've never been judged for working, I don't think people give a shit either way IRL.

I had a career before my child-rearing days, so while I did give some of that up to be at home, I don't feel I missed out overall. I do think it feels like a balancing act for some people though, plus whatever you do someone will be lurking to say 'oh, why don't you......(insert whatever they think you should be doing)'? I definitely don't think shaming those who make different choices is the way to go, even if we don't understand their choices. It's also nice to hear that you feel you haven't had to compromise too much (I genuinely mean that, it's not sarcasm!).

Someone on a thread once criticised me for not quitting my career and going on benefits. It was a thread about NCPs not seeing their kids, and the rebuttal was 'you can't complain about your kids not seeing their dad unless you quit your job and stay home with them on benefits 24/7.'

Really not sure why I still post on here tbh

When my son was very small I was on MN and the anti-working-mum feeling was quite strong. I also remember someone saying that it was better to stay at home and claim benefits than go out to work and farm your child out.

I also remember going to some NCT or similar event and mentioning that I was working 4 days a week when I went back to work and the person I said it to looked very disapproving. Yeah, I just didn't choose a rich enough husband to allow me not to work, sorry.

I think times have changed and it is more acceptable for women to work, especially part-time. And I think it's very silly to aim to rely on benefits and/or a man. Make sure you keep your own income and maintain your skills.

I've never understood all the angst around nurseries etc given that they are widely used across the Nordic countries and the kids seem very well adjusted to me!

Cross-post! I wonder if it was the same one?

Women who stay at home are shamed ALL THE DAMN TIME.

You LITERALLY started a whole thread to do just that while somehow claiming to be the victim.

Many of us aren't fortunate enough to work, thing about poverty is its a trap.

working hard does NOT equal 'higher income'.

Very few make it out of poverty and those that do believe it or not didn't 'just' through hard work, they did it with a lot of luck and a rare opportunity. Some of the hardest and longest working people I know (started in early teens and still going at retirement age in hard manual jobs) have never magic-ed they way out of poverty.

When you only have whats deemable as 'minimum wage' skills you cannot afford to go to work and pay childcare to go make a pittance... its a LUXURY.

I thought I 'got out' when I studied hard and went to uni (the ONLY person from my background to go, first in my family). I did a good medical based course as well not a 'throw away' degree.

State of the NHS now I literally can't afford to do those excessive hours for that little pay... its NOT possible and would bankrupt us. On top of that their have been massive redundancies in the sector I am in so not enough jobs to go around even if I was rich enough to take the financial loss.

I'm not starting threads about the ignorance of the privileged working mams who dont realise how being able to afford child care so you can focus on your own career and mental/social health (trust me being able to go into an office and converse with other adults instead of being screamed at 24/7 by people who cant communicate their needs is something most SAHM would love) is not something afforded to everyone.

In real life I've never been judged for working, I don't think people give a shit either way IRL

I hope times have changed. I was judged at primary school for being the only mother who was working full-time (other than two others who were "allowed" to as one was a single mum and the other was widowed).

I don't judge women who work or women who stay at home, as long as they ensure the children are safe and cared for. The thing that annoys me is people complaining about the cost of childcare/thinking that childcare should be free, as if it's a human right to pop out a baby and have someone else look after them all day for free. Nursery staff are not paid enough and this attitude is partly why.

And yes I do understand that some women can't work because the childcare costs don't add up (but then why is it always the women who give up work and not the men - and why are the costs only netted off against the woman's earnings) - but the people I am talking about had good careers and could have afforded childcare but chose not to.

Some did go back after a couple of years - I know one person who did a degree and has worked ever since her dd was about 3 (and that was in a medical field).

How do you know what those taking time out have ever achieved in their lives?
Do you realise that you can 'make something of yourself' in ways other than career/money driven?)

Well said. I have no time for people who think being career/money driven is the only way to have a good life, in fact I actually feel a bit sorry for them (and their kids).

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Women are always shamed for their choices - you have shamed sahm in your post.

I‘’m more of a middle ground. For me work is a means to an end. I am choosing to work less when I return from Mat leave as I believe it will give ne a better work life balance and this will in turn make me a happier person. I could not be reliant on a man for money (luckily as I did 7 years as a single parent). I don’t much care for promotions or work ‘opportunities’.

judgement of my choices wouldn’t impact me as I am happy with the choices I have made. I also don’t feel the need to judge others life choices, but do feel Sad that some women don’t have choices and that some End up being financially abused due to their choices

@gingerguineapig 'but the people I am talking about had good careers and could have afforded childcare but chose not to' - if they have weighed up the options and decided to take a longer break away from work/spend time with children/doing whatever other thing takes their fancy (with whatever time they have leftover) then that is their choice and nobody else's business. We might not understand other people's decisions regarding a whole host of issues, and maybe would choose differently ourselves, but we also have to respect that it's really nothing to do with us.

Irl I have never really come across any judgement. I'm a lone parent of 3 who works full time in a good career. Maybe because my career has the public perception of being an 'angel' (nurse). I've had the odd comment during the toddler years from women in play groups but nothing I don't just brush off. I find once people have moved past the baby/toddler years, parents become much less judgemental. You only ever see it online and that's because you can state your opinion anonymously without having to face the fall out.

Thank you. 😊 And likewise, I am glad that you don't feel that you missed out either. There is no one right way of being a parent, and a happy parent is the best type in my experience.

The only compromise that I really made, I suppose, was staying in a job for a few years longer than I would have done, because I valued the flexibility that it gave me, and I also didn't want to uproot geographically while dd was still at school. I was a little bored for 3 or 4 years and wanted to move on. I just had to bide my time, but I don't think it really held me back in my career and I'm now at the top of my field.

I guess I was fortunate as I was senior enough in my careerby the time I had dd to have enough leverage to work very flexibly. DH also worked very flexibly as well, and we managed most of the childcare between us despite both working full time. We did have a wonderful nanny for around 20 hours per week until dd was 3, but that never felt like a compromise to us in the slightest as she brought things that neither dh nor I were able to offer, and the overall experience was actually immensely enriching for dd. The nanny and her DH became close family friends and we are still in touch with them 15 years later, despite us having moved away.

We then managed all of the school pick ups and drop offs between us until my parents moved to be closer and started to help out. Again, I felt that dd really benefitted from having a close relationship with her grandparents. Of course, we were lucky to have that help, but we would have managed between us without it.

I do appreciate how lucky I was to have a very flexible role and the ability to negotiate my own hours, a DH who was willing and able to pull his weight, money to pay for high quality childcare and living parents who were happy to help. I also recognise that it was much easier to juggle stuff with only one child... not through choice but I'm grateful for that now.

Other people's situations will inevitably be different and I don't feel the need to judge. Some people will choose to work, others will choose to SAH. Some people will have to work because they can't afford not to, others will have to SAH because they can't afford childcare. Some people will work part time or do a combination of working/SAHing over the years, either through choice or necessity. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter...if the parents are loving and supportive, the children will be fine regardless.

Isn't that just the way things are?

Many people only ever experience one normality. This could cover many things from distance from family to availability of public transport.

It's only when you have experienced different normalities that you really understand why someone else's life experience and opportunities are so different from your own

Whenever I see the phrase 'women are expected to work as if they don't have children and raise children as if they don't work' I just think that's so true as you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.

I recently met up with an old schoolfriend who I've known since I was 2 years old and we were at primary school together. We're now in our late 30s. We both have daughters around 3 years old.

I went back to work after a year's maternity leave and will be doing the same with my second daughter as my husband and I want to send our girls to private school and we need two salaries to do so. My friend doesn't believe in formalised education and is going to stay home with her daughter and home educate so her daughter will never be in a childcare or educational setting.

Now I'm aware these are quite extreme examples but we were laughing about how different our choices were despite being from the same background and saying how judgemental some Mums are about how other Mums do things. What is right for one isn't right for another. I don't know why we can't all respect and support each other. Motherhood is hard enough.

Women.are shamed for staying at home and shamed for going to work. What we should be getting angry about is that men can make whatever choices they like and 1. Never get shamed and 2. Never feel guilty for their choices.

Ah this struck a chord with me as someone who was the most desperately sad when I earned the most and held the most senior position I’ve had.

I had plenty of money coming in every month but no time to spend it on experiences to actually enrich my life. Just takeaways while I was at my laptop (when I love to cook and eat good food and enjoy the social side of it which I no longer time for) and paying for people to do the jobs I didn’t have a moment spare to even consider doing.

My life was shit and I didn’t think it was worth living on far too many occasions.

Excellent post.

I also have an issue with a poster who is triggered by working mums being criticised but then goes on to get in a number of digs at sahm and make the assumption that their kids are all living in poverty. There is no right or wrong here, each parent does what they think is best for their own circumstances. It’s about time we stopped criticising each other for our choices.

I find it mind boggling that people think you can take years out of a career and come back to it… in highly successful roles actually you can’t do that. Though I suspect those people who post such nasty things have no idea if they’ve never achieved that themselves.

This is bullshit too. I didn’t return to my previous career but after 10 years as a sahm I retrained and started afresh in another role. Nearly 6 years on, I’ve achieved beyond my wildest dreams, and far more than I managed before having children. Yes it was difficult to return to work and I would be the first to say that I’ve had a lot of good luck but I’ve also worked really hard to get where I am. I’m so glad I wasn’t faced with someone like you and your nasty assumptions about what people in my position can and can’t achieve.

The last sentence is so true!

Now don’t get me wrong - my partner IS a great dad. But the praise he gets for doing the bare minimum is astounding!

“oh look at him playing with his kids! He’s such a good dad!”
“oh he’s off changing her nappy? Such a good dad!”
”oh he watches the kids while you go to work?! Such a good dad!”

Nobody has ever praised me for playing with my children, changing their nappies, or watching them while their dad is at work.

It works the other way though. He was a SAHD for a few years and despite the fact that he did nursery drop off/pick up, and was listed as the first parent on the paperwork, they still called me about any issues. When I was at work, 10 miles away, and he was at home, round the corner.

I have no time for people who think being career/money driven is the only way to have a good life, in fact I actually feel a bit sorry for them (and their kids).

You wait a couple of years until it becomes a competition of who can afford to move homes to better schools, extracurriculars, holidays, etc.

OP where was the post supposedly shaming someone for needing childcare for a child under 1? I bet that poster was put roundly in their place by many others on that thread.

99% of posters on Mumsnet have a neutral stance on whether parents stay at home or work, as OBVIOUSLY the only answer is that families are all different and they do what's best for them.

But for some reason Mumsnet continually indulges these stupid threads started by the other 1% who take a more extreme view either way. It is so so dull and repetitive and tedious.

The biggest difference you can make is to step out of the shame cycle and make a decision not to judge other mothers’ choices.

You’ve taken a couple of swipes in your op, even if they’re unconscious and they sting. The fact that you can claim that sahms aren’t shamed for their choices says a lot. They are. All women are.

We’re all making sacrifices too. The nature of life is that you have to make hard choices between things that are really important to you. Sometimes you get to make the choice. Sometimes they’re made for you.

I wish I could live all the lives in parallel - have the dc, and the career, and the childfree life, be married, have lots of lovers, be a lesbian, wander the world, be a humanitarian aid worker, stay safe at home curled up with my car and my books, live off grid with 6 kids, 4 chickens and a cow named Betsy, live on the International Space Station, go on tour as a rockstar.

It’s easier to judge the heck out of other women than face the grief of what we’ve given up through our choices, or lack of choices.

When I look around what I see is a preponderance of amazing and inspirational women. In all sorts of ways. Sometimes it’s the woman who is patiently and cheerfully putting on a toddlers gloves and getting all 17 fingers into those 5 holes without losing her cool. Sometimes it’s the woman asking for another play date favour because she’s trying to get her thesis finished. Sometimes it’s the mum who couldn’t live with her dc for a while during covid because she was working on the frontline. Or the woman with the high public profile coping with the onslaught of vicious trolling.