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15
Alexandra2001 · 01/08/2023 16:41

HaveToHideAsAnon · 01/08/2023 16:25

No victim here. I'm happy the democratic process has been served and believe we should get on with implementing what has been voted for. I would prefer we had a less incompetent government trying to manage it all, and will again cast my vote in the next general election to try to change that.

I think it quite arrogant to tell people they have made a mistake that they need to learn from. I haven't made a mistake. I voted as I wanted to.

We are outside of all EU bodies/treaties all of them.... even the Windsor agreement only pays a nod to the ECJ.

What better suggestions have you got to implement Brexit for better outcome? Rejoin some of them lol?

TooBigForMyBoots · 01/08/2023 16:47

HaveToHideAsAnon · 01/08/2023 16:25

No victim here. I'm happy the democratic process has been served and believe we should get on with implementing what has been voted for. I would prefer we had a less incompetent government trying to manage it all, and will again cast my vote in the next general election to try to change that.

I think it quite arrogant to tell people they have made a mistake that they need to learn from. I haven't made a mistake. I voted as I wanted to.

Brexit is being implemented. What you voted for is happening. Our country is weaker because of it. We are poorer because of it. Our healthcare system, food production industries and economy are in tatters because of it. And don't even start me on the problems we are having due to immigration because of it. You voted the way you did because you wanted and fuck the consequences.

It isn't arrogance that makes me think your vote was a mistake, it's living with the real life consequences of it and seeing what a disaster its been.

HaveToHideAsAnon · 01/08/2023 17:36

Remainers are entitled to think brexit is terrible. They are entitled to want things to be different. However, brexit is here. If remainers want to change people's minds for the future then, IMO (and don't worry, it's the last time I'll say it) then they need to stop patronising, insulting, blaming and otherwise having a go at people who cast their vote in favour of brexit. If remainers do not stop with the insults (and I don't just mean to me, this is a broader issue where many people in society feel unheard, belittled, patronised, hated, disenfranchised and looked down on) then the same may happen again (at the next vote), or at the very least change will not occur, or will.occur.more slowly than remainers desire.

No-one likes to be told "you r stupid, it's your fault, you r ignorant....", especially by people who are looking down on them and think they are better than them. Confrontation in that way does not change minds. People cannot be forced or beaten into submission. They cannot be hated into changing their mind. The more you insult, you push, you blame, the bigger the defence is constructed. The more heels are dug in. The less likely people are to listen. Minds are changed through understanding, listening and positive action.

Its not me that wants to change minds on this topic. It's the remainers. It's up to them to decide - continue to moan, belittle, be hostile (and get nowhere). Or try a different approach (based on a little more respect and compassion for your fellow citizens - more of whom voted leave than remain).

JudgeRinderonTinder · 01/08/2023 17:37

@HaveToHideAsAnon people always say this, ‘insults don’t make people change their votes’ but I’m good enough at the art of self reflection, so if I made a mistake and was constantly being made to feel thick for it, I sure as hell would think, ‘’hang on a minute!’’ And really take the time to reconsider my choice.

It really doesn’t make sense to me when people say they wouldn’t change their stance, I always take that as them meaning they just wouldn’t change it so they can stage some kind of petulant rebellion against people who insult them. Pathetic really 😂

Can you not reflect on your vote? Why would you do it again if so? Knowing that you’re ridiculed and seeing the damage it’s done, you would STILL
vote the same way? Beggars belief.

CoffeeRevelsForever · 01/08/2023 17:44

It's funny how all the onus for cleaning up the mess of Brexit is on the people who never wanted it @HaveToHideAsAnon and the Leavers refuse to have any accountability whatsoever. You don't explain why you voted for this disaster, you won't accept that people are suffering because of the way you voted, you won't even tell us anything good about Brexit, but you expect everyone to be totally fine with the consequences, never breathe a word of criticism that might hurt your feelings and get on with dedicating our lives to undoing it. But god forbid someone makes you feel bad about it because it will only make you double down even harder! To extend the fire metaphor I used before, we have to put out the flames but never ask why the fuck you lit the match in the first place because then you'll burn it all down again. And you'll never tell us why we should be happy with the ashes of everything we had, because that's a secret.

ilovesooty · 01/08/2023 17:52

HaveToHideAsAnon · 01/08/2023 17:36

Remainers are entitled to think brexit is terrible. They are entitled to want things to be different. However, brexit is here. If remainers want to change people's minds for the future then, IMO (and don't worry, it's the last time I'll say it) then they need to stop patronising, insulting, blaming and otherwise having a go at people who cast their vote in favour of brexit. If remainers do not stop with the insults (and I don't just mean to me, this is a broader issue where many people in society feel unheard, belittled, patronised, hated, disenfranchised and looked down on) then the same may happen again (at the next vote), or at the very least change will not occur, or will.occur.more slowly than remainers desire.

No-one likes to be told "you r stupid, it's your fault, you r ignorant....", especially by people who are looking down on them and think they are better than them. Confrontation in that way does not change minds. People cannot be forced or beaten into submission. They cannot be hated into changing their mind. The more you insult, you push, you blame, the bigger the defence is constructed. The more heels are dug in. The less likely people are to listen. Minds are changed through understanding, listening and positive action.

Its not me that wants to change minds on this topic. It's the remainers. It's up to them to decide - continue to moan, belittle, be hostile (and get nowhere). Or try a different approach (based on a little more respect and compassion for your fellow citizens - more of whom voted leave than remain).

I don't care whether you and people like you change your mind. You've done what you've done.

HalloumiLuvver · 01/08/2023 17:56

GoodChat · 28/07/2023 19:24

"I thought we could keep the Europeans out and still be able to do whatever I wanted in their country"

Yup! The height of ignorant arrogance. Tough luck mate!

HaveToHideAsAnon · 01/08/2023 17:59

JudgeRinderonTinder · 01/08/2023 17:37

@HaveToHideAsAnon people always say this, ‘insults don’t make people change their votes’ but I’m good enough at the art of self reflection, so if I made a mistake and was constantly being made to feel thick for it, I sure as hell would think, ‘’hang on a minute!’’ And really take the time to reconsider my choice.

It really doesn’t make sense to me when people say they wouldn’t change their stance, I always take that as them meaning they just wouldn’t change it so they can stage some kind of petulant rebellion against people who insult them. Pathetic really 😂

Can you not reflect on your vote? Why would you do it again if so? Knowing that you’re ridiculed and seeing the damage it’s done, you would STILL
vote the same way? Beggars belief.

My forte is clearly not politics. But it is psychology. I've studied human psychology for years, and applied the principals in clinical practice for years too. Most people are capable of reflection judgerinderontinder when they have the appropriate and safe context in which to reflect, when they don't feel threatened and when they don't feel judged. It does not make you a better person, that you can reflect when being insulted. Though it is perhaps a unique skill.

What I do know, from years of study, work with addictions and work in behaviour change, is that we cannot force people to change by insulting them and telling them they are wrong.

This article might be worth a read. It's obviously a light article meant to be read quickly. But if you r interested in changing minds, there is loads of research out there on motivational interviewing.

A good research project for an academic remainer, might be to compare three groups - one where the interviewer is using MI and is open to understanding and hearing the brexiteers views and appears non judgemental, one where the interviewers tells the brexiteers all the reasons they are wrong, and stupid and ignorant, and one which is a control of some kind.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/31/opinion/change-someones-mind.html

HaveToHideAsAnon · 01/08/2023 18:05

ilovesooty · 01/08/2023 17:52

I don't care whether you and people like you change your mind. You've done what you've done.

Show quote history

Ok, fair enough. So when we have the vote again in 20yrs time you'll b happy for a repeat outcome? Or if there is opportunity for a re-vote before then, you'll be ok with the status quo? Or if there is a referendum on another topic, but driven by similar issues which drove the leave vote, you'll be happy how things pan out. Great!

JudgeRinderonTinder · 01/08/2023 18:07

HaveToHideAsAnon · 01/08/2023 17:59

My forte is clearly not politics. But it is psychology. I've studied human psychology for years, and applied the principals in clinical practice for years too. Most people are capable of reflection judgerinderontinder when they have the appropriate and safe context in which to reflect, when they don't feel threatened and when they don't feel judged. It does not make you a better person, that you can reflect when being insulted. Though it is perhaps a unique skill.

What I do know, from years of study, work with addictions and work in behaviour change, is that we cannot force people to change by insulting them and telling them they are wrong.

This article might be worth a read. It's obviously a light article meant to be read quickly. But if you r interested in changing minds, there is loads of research out there on motivational interviewing.

A good research project for an academic remainer, might be to compare three groups - one where the interviewer is using MI and is open to understanding and hearing the brexiteers views and appears non judgemental, one where the interviewers tells the brexiteers all the reasons they are wrong, and stupid and ignorant, and one which is a control of some kind.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/31/opinion/change-someones-mind.html

Show quote history

I have a degree in psychology so I’m aware of this. It still kind of baffles me really.

I completely understand the defensiveness part - defending yourself against abuse, but I would still silently reflect on the reasons people are insulting me, really try and understand and re educate myself, then change my vote according to my thoughts if I thought necessary and I got the chance again. I wouldn’t double down. Why? When you can see the damage that’s impacting all of us, including you?

If you don’t reflect you don’t learn.

Tidsleytiddy · 01/08/2023 18:08

Couldn’t give a flying fuck about them

ilovesooty · 01/08/2023 18:08

HaveToHideAsAnon · 01/08/2023 18:05

Ok, fair enough. So when we have the vote again in 20yrs time you'll b happy for a repeat outcome? Or if there is opportunity for a re-vote before then, you'll be ok with the status quo? Or if there is a referendum on another topic, but driven by similar issues which drove the leave vote, you'll be happy how things pan out. Great!

Show quote history

I hope there is never another referendum in my lifetime - at least not one as poorly thought out as that one. I don't want to see people like you having the power to cause damage again.

Blossomtoes · 01/08/2023 18:18

ilovesooty · 01/08/2023 18:08

I hope there is never another referendum in my lifetime - at least not one as poorly thought out as that one. I don't want to see people like you having the power to cause damage again.

Show quote history

Completely agree. Hopefully we’ve learnt our lesson.

Alexandra2001 · 01/08/2023 18:20

Why should anyone be interested in changing your mind? no one likes an impossible cause, you've made your choice and nothing is going to change it, you ve made that abundantly clear.

You clearly don't give a fuck about what you ve done to the country, its youth or remain voters, you just like winding them up.

There is no vote on the horizon, Brexit is done and all people can do is find ways to live with it or if they want/can, leave the UK.

HaveToHideAsAnon · 01/08/2023 18:24

JudgeRinderonTinder · 01/08/2023 18:07

I have a degree in psychology so I’m aware of this. It still kind of baffles me really.

I completely understand the defensiveness part - defending yourself against abuse, but I would still silently reflect on the reasons people are insulting me, really try and understand and re educate myself, then change my vote according to my thoughts if I thought necessary and I got the chance again. I wouldn’t double down. Why? When you can see the damage that’s impacting all of us, including you?

If you don’t reflect you don’t learn.

Show quote history

You don't know I haven't reflected. I have reflected a lot on brexit and have changed my mind on a few issues over the last couple of years. I may well reflect later when this thread has sunk in. I have taken on board much of what I have read. And I will continue to reflect away from the board.

I just seriously object to the hostility levelled against people exercising their right to vote. I don't like it when people act superior, say things like "you are stupid, ignorant, racist, uneducated, shouldn't be allowed to vote, should have spoilt your vote instead of taking part if you can't think like me". There is an arrogance attached to many (obviously not all) remainers that looks down on those that voted brexit. We all share this country, we all have a right to vote. Noone is superior to anyone else. We have just all had different life experiences which inform our beliefs, values and opinions. Remainers are not somehow better people than brexit voters. That attitude is not helpful. We don't have to vote the same way as each other. We shouldn't have to apologise for how we vote. We shouldn't have to explain why we voted a certain way. When a democratic vote is held, the outcome should be upheld. Just because someone isn't as clever as you, doesn't see the same issues as you, has different ideas as you, doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to vote.

I not really saying all this very well, someone else said what I'm trying to say here,much better earlier on.

CoffeeRevelsForever · 01/08/2023 18:27

HaveToHideAsAnon · 01/08/2023 17:59

My forte is clearly not politics. But it is psychology. I've studied human psychology for years, and applied the principals in clinical practice for years too. Most people are capable of reflection judgerinderontinder when they have the appropriate and safe context in which to reflect, when they don't feel threatened and when they don't feel judged. It does not make you a better person, that you can reflect when being insulted. Though it is perhaps a unique skill.

What I do know, from years of study, work with addictions and work in behaviour change, is that we cannot force people to change by insulting them and telling them they are wrong.

This article might be worth a read. It's obviously a light article meant to be read quickly. But if you r interested in changing minds, there is loads of research out there on motivational interviewing.

A good research project for an academic remainer, might be to compare three groups - one where the interviewer is using MI and is open to understanding and hearing the brexiteers views and appears non judgemental, one where the interviewers tells the brexiteers all the reasons they are wrong, and stupid and ignorant, and one which is a control of some kind.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/31/opinion/change-someones-mind.html

Show quote history

So more work for us to do - we're just crying out for academic projects to do on Leavers! There's loads of funding in academia thanks to Brexit...oh wait, maybe not - but you're exempt from any self reflection or accountability? Is there anything Remainers aren't responsible for?

HaveToHideAsAnon · 01/08/2023 18:27

Alexandra2001 · 01/08/2023 18:20

Why should anyone be interested in changing your mind? no one likes an impossible cause, you've made your choice and nothing is going to change it, you ve made that abundantly clear.

You clearly don't give a fuck about what you ve done to the country, its youth or remain voters, you just like winding them up.

There is no vote on the horizon, Brexit is done and all people can do is find ways to live with it or if they want/can, leave the UK.

Because the mess the country is in is all down to me! Me! This one figure. It has nothing to do with Boris, truss, COVID, Sunak, Cameron, any of the other masses of people that voted the same way as me, the remainers that didn't win over the remain vote.

No, it's just me that's caused the cost of living crisis and all the other messes the country is in. Wow, I didn't know I had that much power.

HaveToHideAsAnon · 01/08/2023 18:29

CoffeeRevelsForever · 01/08/2023 18:27

So more work for us to do - we're just crying out for academic projects to do on Leavers! There's loads of funding in academia thanks to Brexit...oh wait, maybe not - but you're exempt from any self reflection or accountability? Is there anything Remainers aren't responsible for?

Show quote history

Well clearly you think people who voted brexit are incompetent to do or say anything, shouldn't have the vote etc... are all thick, probably shouldn't even exist. So I'm leaving all the work to the remainers. They are clearly all the smart, capable, sensible ones that would never do any wrong.

JudgeRinderonTinder · 01/08/2023 18:31

HaveToHideAsAnon · 01/08/2023 18:24

You don't know I haven't reflected. I have reflected a lot on brexit and have changed my mind on a few issues over the last couple of years. I may well reflect later when this thread has sunk in. I have taken on board much of what I have read. And I will continue to reflect away from the board.

I just seriously object to the hostility levelled against people exercising their right to vote. I don't like it when people act superior, say things like "you are stupid, ignorant, racist, uneducated, shouldn't be allowed to vote, should have spoilt your vote instead of taking part if you can't think like me". There is an arrogance attached to many (obviously not all) remainers that looks down on those that voted brexit. We all share this country, we all have a right to vote. Noone is superior to anyone else. We have just all had different life experiences which inform our beliefs, values and opinions. Remainers are not somehow better people than brexit voters. That attitude is not helpful. We don't have to vote the same way as each other. We shouldn't have to apologise for how we vote. We shouldn't have to explain why we voted a certain way. When a democratic vote is held, the outcome should be upheld. Just because someone isn't as clever as you, doesn't see the same issues as you, has different ideas as you, doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to vote.

I not really saying all this very well, someone else said what I'm trying to say here,much better earlier on.

Show quote history

The main reason Brexiteers don’t change their mind is because they have fragile ego’s, and by changing their minds that would take them the bravery to admit they were a bloody idiot, and it takes a lot for people to admit they’ve been stupid. It’s about pride. That’s the crux of it.

HaveToHideAsAnon · 01/08/2023 18:32

JudgeRinderonTinder · 01/08/2023 18:31

The main reason Brexiteers don’t change their mind is because they have fragile ego’s, and by changing their minds that would take them the bravery to admit they were a bloody idiot, and it takes a lot for people to admit they’ve been stupid. It’s about pride. That’s the crux of it.

Show quote history

Maybe read the article

JudgeRinderonTinder · 01/08/2023 18:34

HaveToHideAsAnon · 01/08/2023 18:32

Maybe read the article

Show quote history

I don’t need to. It’s also behind a paywall.

CoffeeRevelsForever · 01/08/2023 18:35

HaveToHideAsAnon · 01/08/2023 18:29

Well clearly you think people who voted brexit are incompetent to do or say anything, shouldn't have the vote etc... are all thick, probably shouldn't even exist. So I'm leaving all the work to the remainers. They are clearly all the smart, capable, sensible ones that would never do any wrong.

Show quote history

I don't believe in taking the right to vote away from anyone. This referendum should never have happened the way it did so none of us should have been able to vote on it. But your refusal to tell us one reason why you'd vote Brexit again just confirms the suspicion most of us have: it really was for nothing, and those that wanted it can't find any way to defend it. Bridging the divide with no explanation of why feels impossible.

HaveToHideAsAnon · 01/08/2023 18:35

JudgeRinderonTinder · 01/08/2023 18:34

I don’t need to. It’s also behind a paywall.

Show quote history

No its not!

DuncinToffee · 01/08/2023 18:36

HaveToHideAsAnon · 01/08/2023 18:33

Well if you could state your reasons why you voted leave and what the benefits are, maybe you would be able to change our minds on Brexit being a disaster.