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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think the penny hasn't dropped yet, for many people, that the trade in new petrol and diesel cars is really ending in 6 years

823 replies

JadeClade · 25/07/2023 21:17

I think the price of second hand cars will go through the roof, at first, when new cars are no longer available, and people buying new homes now really do need to be factoring in where they are going to charge an electric car, and all sorts of preparations and plans are simply not being made

YANBU - we need to be planning and preparing, as individuals and society.
YABU- we don't need to think about it.

OP posts:
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18
cardibach · 26/07/2023 18:29

@Lunar270
just seen this too Modern EV's can charge 300 miles in 20 minutes. That's like filling up with petrol
no it isn’t. Half an hour? It’s less than 5 mins to fill with petrol. I don’t mind wait8 f for. Person 8n front of me at busy times. I don’t have half an hour myself most of the time, least still to wait half an hour for someone else before I can even start.

User19633654 · 26/07/2023 18:29

I don't think there are any on street chargers in our town either, not for household use on the streets just a very few at the shopping mall, there maybe a couple at the supermarket both on the outskirts of town. I don't recall seeing any anywhere else here but I just live in a smallish East Midlands town so probably to be expected. Those sort of towns are always left behind, we only just got full fibre internet up our street recently

User19633654 · 26/07/2023 18:33

They took half our lampposts out about 10 years ago to save money and replaced the few that were left with super bright ones.

cardibach · 26/07/2023 18:33

SlippySarah · 26/07/2023 16:03

I think it's a great idea. Most of the people who are against it are just scared of change or can't envisage themselves doing something different. The destruction of the environment and the harm caused by pollution are serious problems and we all need to change and learn to live with a bit of inconvenience.

Electric cars don’t really help the environment. It’s not ‘a bit of inconvenience’ it’s making the whole of society stop functioning properly.

cardibach · 26/07/2023 18:36

Ghastisflabbered · 26/07/2023 17:03

To be fair, an awful lot of the batshit comments have come from you. You seem awfully enraged about something you claim will never happen and won’t affect you.

And no one’s expecting anyone to “fork out £30,000 for an electric vehicle” unless they want to - the people who pay £30k for a vehicle now will continue to do so it will just be electric - and then people who can’t afford that will buy that £30k car second, third, fourth and fifth hand as it gets within their personal budget for a vehicle - exactly as happens now.

Except the car I have only costs £19k new so gets to me second hand. And electric vehicles don’t last like petrol ones. The batteries go and are very expensive to replace.

cardibach · 26/07/2023 18:38

Saltovinegar · 26/07/2023 17:54

Not the case I'm afraid, there would be nowhere to put a bike shed and there's not a lot of parking. The area is currently being plagued by people breaking into cars so I would not be leaving an expensive ebike in a random bike shed.

I wish people would just stop making assumptions about other posters situations.

We haven’t had the crime, but I agree otherwise. No space is given up to car parking. We park along the road. There is no space for bike storage.

megletthesecond · 26/07/2023 18:47

@MayThe4th so many people are allergic to using their legs for short distances, that does have to change. We will still need cars but use can be slashed.

goodkidsmaadhouse · 26/07/2023 18:51

cardibach · 26/07/2023 18:36

Except the car I have only costs £19k new so gets to me second hand. And electric vehicles don’t last like petrol ones. The batteries go and are very expensive to replace.

I keep hearing this from EV naysayers but it hasn’t been my experience or that of people I know with EVs… what’s your source?

On the other hand annual garage cost of my EV has been much lower than any of my previous ICEs because there just isn’t much to go wrong. No repairs required so far (touch wood…) and I’ve had it 5 years, bought second hand.

Ghastisflabbered · 26/07/2023 18:55

cardibach · 26/07/2023 18:36

Except the car I have only costs £19k new so gets to me second hand. And electric vehicles don’t last like petrol ones. The batteries go and are very expensive to replace.

£19k new will get you a Hyundai Kona electric - so there’s your 19k car available in a few years for you to buy second hand with a projected 200k mileage lifespan.

Is that cheap enough with suitable longevity?

haggisandcoos · 26/07/2023 19:18

@SlippySarah do you have any idea what actually goes on in manufacturing an electric car? Destruction of the environment and pollution of water supply happens when mining the lithium, cobalt, and nickel needed for the batteries.

Mining these materials, however, has a high environmental cost, a factor that inevitably makes the EV manufacturing process more energy intensive than that of an ICE vehicle. The environmental impact of battery production comes from the toxic fumes released during the mining process and the water-intensive nature of the activity. In 2016, hundreds of protestors threw dead fish plucked from the waters of the Liqui river onto the streets of Tagong, Tibet, publicly denouncing the Ganzizhou Ronga Lithium mine’s unethical practice of polluting the local ecosystem through toxic chemical leaks. Similarly, the production of lithium was halted in China’s Yichun city after an investigation into the water quality of the Jin river, the main source of residential water, revealed the presence of toxic pollutants.

Furthermore, producing one tonne of lithium (enough for ~100 car batteries) requires approximately 2 million tonnes of water, which makes battery production an extremely water-intensive practice. In light of this, the South American Lithium triangle consisting of Chile, Argentina, and Bolivia, experienced heavy water depletion due to intensive lithium extraction in the area. In Chile alone, 65% of the region’s water was used for lithium extraction. The US state of Nevada recently saw protests on account of the Lithium Americas Project due to the prophesied use of enormous quantities of groundwater.

Satellite analysis in Cuba has shown a devoid of life in over 570 hectares of land and contamination of over 10 kilometres of coastline where nickel and cobalt mines are present. The Philippines had to shut down 23 mines, many producing nickel and cobalt, because of the environmental degradation that it caused.

A 2021 (UK) study comparing EV and ICE emissions found that 46% of EV carbon emissions come from the production process while for an ICE vehicle, they ‘only’ account for 26%.

https://earth.org/environmental-impact-of-battery-production/

The Environmental Impact of Battery Production for Electric Vehicles | Earth.Org

While the principle of lower emissions behind electric vehicles is commendable, the environmental impact of battery production is still up for debate.

https://earth.org/environmental-impact-of-battery-production/

haggisandcoos · 26/07/2023 19:33

I'm not against EV per se, but I want longer ranges and a fall in price for those cars with the long range batteries. If I buy one, I will do so in full awareness of the environmental destruction and pollution I would be contributing to, so I'm hoping that this can be significantly lessened by the time I need a new car. If not, its ICE for me.

Has anyone mentioned the decrease in EV range in cold weather? Imagine the queues in winter when cars have to be charged more often.

bellac11 · 26/07/2023 19:39

I think I said upthread that I get researching every now and then to see if there would be anything that would be cost effective in terms of my OHs drive to work to swap over to an EV. He would need a massive range though and to compensate for the fact that the range quoted is not what you would actually get dependent on needing heating or air con on plus idling in traffic.

Often he has massive diversions on the motorway to get home this can add huge mileage to his route home so he would need to be prepared but if there was way of getting something that a loan would cost the same as his current petrol then we could consider it, but there never is.

Got a bit excited about that Kona someone mentioned at 19k but the range isnt enough.

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 26/07/2023 19:55

haggisandcoos · 26/07/2023 19:18

@SlippySarah do you have any idea what actually goes on in manufacturing an electric car? Destruction of the environment and pollution of water supply happens when mining the lithium, cobalt, and nickel needed for the batteries.

Mining these materials, however, has a high environmental cost, a factor that inevitably makes the EV manufacturing process more energy intensive than that of an ICE vehicle. The environmental impact of battery production comes from the toxic fumes released during the mining process and the water-intensive nature of the activity. In 2016, hundreds of protestors threw dead fish plucked from the waters of the Liqui river onto the streets of Tagong, Tibet, publicly denouncing the Ganzizhou Ronga Lithium mine’s unethical practice of polluting the local ecosystem through toxic chemical leaks. Similarly, the production of lithium was halted in China’s Yichun city after an investigation into the water quality of the Jin river, the main source of residential water, revealed the presence of toxic pollutants.

Furthermore, producing one tonne of lithium (enough for ~100 car batteries) requires approximately 2 million tonnes of water, which makes battery production an extremely water-intensive practice. In light of this, the South American Lithium triangle consisting of Chile, Argentina, and Bolivia, experienced heavy water depletion due to intensive lithium extraction in the area. In Chile alone, 65% of the region’s water was used for lithium extraction. The US state of Nevada recently saw protests on account of the Lithium Americas Project due to the prophesied use of enormous quantities of groundwater.

Satellite analysis in Cuba has shown a devoid of life in over 570 hectares of land and contamination of over 10 kilometres of coastline where nickel and cobalt mines are present. The Philippines had to shut down 23 mines, many producing nickel and cobalt, because of the environmental degradation that it caused.

A 2021 (UK) study comparing EV and ICE emissions found that 46% of EV carbon emissions come from the production process while for an ICE vehicle, they ‘only’ account for 26%.

https://earth.org/environmental-impact-of-battery-production/

To counter, this paper found that the total life-cycle emissions of hybrid and electric vehicles were reduced by up to 89 % compared to internal combustion engine vehicles, after an assessment of 790 different commercially available vehicle variants.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1364032122000867

As for the whataboutery with regards to environmental damage, that's more to do with shitty companies and shitty regulations than anything else. Presumably you're also calling for the ban of fossil fuels after all these incidents?

2020 - https://appliedsciences.nasa.gov/what-we-do/disasters/disasters-activations/mauritius-oil-spill-2020

2021- https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/dec/16/california-oil-spill-texas-company-charged

2022 - https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/01/05/ecological-disaster-spanish-energy-giant-repsol-hit-with-further-55m-fine-for-oil-spill-in

2023 - https://www.worldoil.com/news/2023/7/18/large-oil-spill-spotted-near-site-of-pemex-natural-gas-platform-explosion-in-gulf-of-mexico/

Mauritius Oil Spill 2020 | NASA Applied Sciences

On July 25, 2020, the oil tanker MV Wakashio, reported to be carrying nearly 4,000 metric tons of oil, ran aground on a coral reef on the island of Mauritius

https://appliedsciences.nasa.gov/what-we-do/disasters/disasters-activations/mauritius-oil-spill-2020

OrwellianTimes · 26/07/2023 19:58
  1. I’ll eat my hat if the government stick to this.
  2. 3 diesel cars are being sold brand new now - so there will still be loads about in 6 years time. It’s not going to be illegal to sell secondhand cars overnight.
cardibach · 26/07/2023 20:03

Ghastisflabbered · 26/07/2023 18:55

£19k new will get you a Hyundai Kona electric - so there’s your 19k car available in a few years for you to buy second hand with a projected 200k mileage lifespan.

Is that cheap enough with suitable longevity?

No. Because I never spend that much as I never buy a new car.

JonahAndTheSnail · 26/07/2023 20:07

The idea that the UK could produce enough electric to supply going fully EV in 2030 is laughable. I've managed to live almost 40 years without relying on driving to work (in a northern city). This year has hammered home to me that I need to get comfortable with driving if I want to get to work each day. The rail and bus strikes are making it impossible to not rely on cars!

Ghastisflabbered · 26/07/2023 20:11

cardibach · 26/07/2023 20:03

No. Because I never spend that much as I never buy a new car.

I think you misunderstand.

You said the car you drive (second hand) cost £19k new which rules out electric cars.

I found you a £19k new electric car that will therefore be available at second hand prices similar to what you’ve paid for your second hand ICE car that was also £19k new.

No one said you had to buy a new car.

cardibach · 26/07/2023 20:14

I did get that. I have no faith in second hand EVs from everything I’ve read. Projected life is just a guess. Plus the range of that car isn’t great is it? And I’ve nowhere to charge one and never will have. It’s not possible on my street. So the price is a factor, but not the only one.

bellac11 · 26/07/2023 20:21

Ghastisflabbered · 26/07/2023 20:11

I think you misunderstand.

You said the car you drive (second hand) cost £19k new which rules out electric cars.

I found you a £19k new electric car that will therefore be available at second hand prices similar to what you’ve paid for your second hand ICE car that was also £19k new.

No one said you had to buy a new car.

A new EV Kona is 34-43k

Second hand is 19k but thats for a car only a couple of years old, so virtually new in my eyes

haggisandcoos · 26/07/2023 20:42

@Thebestwaytoscareatory My point is that we have to make our minds up on EVs by taking an unbiased and analytical look at the pros and cons of both EVs and ICE. I know about the negatives (and positives) of the O&G industry, with four generations of close family working in that sector, but I won't base my decision to buy an EV on saving the environment alone, when I know that it is more nuanced than that. For me, it's about managing risk.

Spendonsend · 26/07/2023 21:01

I have found this thread very interesting as the government announced it is happening. But people really think its incredibly unlikely they will go ahead with the ban. I was thinking the date might slip a bit but manufacturers were preparing for it but it sounds like the general opinion is this is not going to happen at all.

PuzzledObserver · 26/07/2023 21:18

@bellac11

I dont understand the charging, in the description it says 39kwh but equally it says 10.5kw charger

39kWh is the battery capacity - equivalent to the volume of petrol a tank can hold. Where ICE car fuel efficiency is measured in miles per gallon, EV owners talk about miles per kWh. The Kona is a very efficient car, 4 miles per kWh is a good rule of thumb, so you’re looking at 160 miles range. Less in bad weather and high speed, quite a bit more in benign conditions.

The 10.5kW charger is the maximum speed the on-board charger can handle (although you would only get 7kW on most supplies). Imagine you were pouring electricity in through a tap - the higher the charging speed, the wider open the tap is, and the quicker the battery will fill.

Then looking at the extra information about charging it mentions a home charger (fast) of 7.4kw and then public charging of 50kw rapid

Most home chargers will supply 7.4kW, so filling a 39kWh battery from scratch will take about 6 hours (6x7.4. = 44.4kWh, but there are some losses during charging, so to fill the 39kWh battery you need to supply more than 39kWh cos you lose some on the way.). At a rapid charger, electricity is supplied directly into the battery as DC rather than via the AC onboard charger. It can therefore charge must faster - like the tap is open much wider. The maximum speed the 39kWh Kona can accept is 50kW, although the speed you will actually get depends on the temperature of the battery and how full it is. It slows down as the battery gets closer to 100%. For this reason, most people don’t stay on a rapid charger until the car is completely full. Get enough to get you to where you’re going, and move on.

What does all that mean?

I hope my explanations are intelligible.

its very slow to fill up however.

Compared to petrol, yes it is. Consider, however, that most cars spend the vast majority of their time parked up doing nothing. That’s where 7kW chargers come in. You put them in places where the car is going to be sat for a long time doing nothing - like at home, or at work, or in a park and ride or station car park. It makes no odds to me if my car takes 9 hours to charge (I have the 64kWh Kona), because I am tucked up in bed when it’s charging.

Personally I wouldnt want an SUV but much cheaper than some that are around. Plus range isnt great

I didn’t want an SUV either! The Kona is classed as a crossover rather than a full SUV - a Range Rover it is NOT. The 64kWh version has a much better range than the 39kWh (bigger battery = more miles). For the driving I usually do - I live semi-rurally, so it’s a mix of country roads and town, not much motorway - I reliably get over 300 miles in summer, 270 in winter. Motorway speeds and bad weather do reduce that, but even in the worst of conditions I am confident of over 200 miles from a full charge.

My car would take over 9 hours to charge fully from empty. In practice, no-one ever does that. You top up, as and when need and opportunity dictate. Most of the time I’ve had this car, I’ve been on an EV tariff which gives 4 cheap hours each night. So I charge for 4 hours at a time, enough to add 100-120 miles. So I plug in every 2/3/5 days - depending how many miles I’m doing - to bring me back up to 200-250 miles of range.

It may start off feeling overwhelming, but it soon becomes second nature to think: what’s my SOC (state of charge), how many miles am I doing tomorrow, shall I plug in tonight or not? Or if you don’t have a home charger or are away from home, you get in the habit of checking where the chargers are and fitting charging in. Without waiting for it to charge, the vast majority of the time.

PuzzledObserver · 26/07/2023 21:24

@cardibach I have no faith in second hand EVs from everything I’ve read. Projected life is just a guess

There have been Teslas and Leafs around for 12 years.

The early Leafs have suffered significant battery degradation (= loss of range - not battery failure) because they have no thermal battery management. They later fixed that mistake, and other manufacturers didn’t repeat it. And the Teslas - there are plenty of 10+ years old Teslas driving around with very good battery health at over 100K miles driven.

So no, projected life isn’t just a guess.

bellac11 · 26/07/2023 21:24

Yes I notice the front is not a traditional SUV front, its more gentle if you like

His daily commute is 170mls but he has to then also drive around while at work and there are always problems on the motorway, diversions can crop up and add another 30 miles. I know we were looking for something with a guaranteed at least 250 so that there is leeway

Petrol costs him a huge amount (although much cheaper than the train of course) so if there was an offset on getting a loan the monthly payments may even out

But we dont have a home charger.

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