A Baby..is this the beginning of the end?

[HiLee19]

Basically been together with my DH for 14 years, 4 years married.
Before marriage I was always open that I don’t foresee myself having kids, it’s just not something I ever longed for. My husband was undecided at that point but didn’t mind. So in the recent year he has started pestering me about having a baby, yesterday we got into a heated argument about it and he threatened to divorce if we are not gonna try to a baby. The issue is I have no excuse NOT to have a kid. We have a great set-up; a huge house, cars holidays, very busy social life both, DH is a high earner, my income is 65k and with a potential promotion could significantly increase. He is happy for me to be a SAHM but it’s not something I would consider, as I like my financial independence but the option is there if I want it.
Also we have the best relationship, we barely ever argue that why I’m a bit shaken by the argument we had last night. We have everything to give the best life to a child but my biggest worry is that this all will end once we have a child. We have some friends who have kids and who are child free by choice, somehow the ones with kids their happiness have dramatically decline since having babies.
AIBU to think that my life will become miserable once we have a kid? I’m worried that I will start to resent DH, he is not very hands on with household, we have a clearer that comes 2x a month but the most cleaning and cooking is on me. Also at the moment I’m feeling like I’m getting pushed into having a kid but I don’t want to lose my DH. We met when we were in late teens I feel like we have matured and grown up together while building this amazing life together. I love my husband and would even consider to give him a child but I’m worried that will resent him and a baby. So basically is this the beginning of the end of this beautiful life we have built together. Unfortunately I don’t see any way out of it to please both sides. Any advice?

The only excuse you need not to have a child is that you don’t want one. You clearly don’t. You say your life would be miserable- I agree. You owe it to yourself not to make your life miserable to please other people. It wouldn’t work in the long run, anyway. He wouldn’t pull his weight, you’d be unhappy, either you’d divorce him for being useless or he’d divorce you for being unhappy, and you’d be left holding the baby you didn’t want. Listen to your gut.

This is fucking terrible advice and should be completely ignored.

I’d suggest he should be the one planning and thinking about this, and OP should be asking him these questions. Let’s see if he’s put any thought in whatsoever.

Is it possible that you may one day regret choosing to not have a child? Yes, of course.

It's also possible to regret having children. That's why subreddits like Regretful Parents and Facebook groups like "I Regret Having a Child" exist.

People don't like to admit it but some people do regret having kids. People can only make the choice that they feel is right for them at the time. You can't make the choice to have a child based off a fear that one day, when you're old and grey and your "best" years are behind you, you regretted not doing so.

There's been studies that have shown that this regret at choosing to not have children simply isn't common or prevalent. Lots of people love to throw out the old, "What about when you're older?" bingo remarks at us child-free people, but don't seem to realise the intrinsic selfishness of such remarks.

Having a child in the hopes that they'll keep you company in old age or even be your carers when you need them is selfish and the wrong reason to have kids. I hate seeing this comment and it's been voiced a couple of times by a couple of different PP's because it makes no sense.

Doing something to stave off potential future regret is stupid. Especially something as big as having a child. There's a saying around that goes "I'd rather regret not having a child than regret having a child."

Of course, it's something worth considering and thinking about what your future will look like either way and imagine how you might feel. Truth is, none of us can know or predict the future. Regret also isn't a be-all and end-all emotion. Everyone regrets something because we can't take every path that is available to be travelled. We have to make choices and that means some things we won't get to do or experience.

Let's say OP did get to an age where she started to question and regret her choice and it's too late to go back on it-she can deal and work through that regret. If she's young enough or capable, she can volunteer or maybe she has children in her life from relatives or friends.

Also, nursing and residential homes are full of people who had children and many of those adult children never call or visit. So many care workers have voiced this observation of people, who have rooms covered in pictures of their children and grandchildren and they never get visited by said children/grandchildren.

So, it's not a guarantee for company or care.

I agree. Well said.

Spot on.

A few people have noted about how being well off can help to cushion / ease the burden around the house. It definitely can, but a reality check:

Nannies are really expensive (around £40k a year once you have paid their tax and national insurance and pension contributions etc) and like any other human, they want contracted / standard hours. Mine lives in, but still works 8-7. In other words, she starts work for the day when I leave for work (having been up since 5.30 getting kids and myself ready) and finishes as I step in the door from the office, just in time to do bedtime, cook myself some food and log on again for a bit more work because in my industry leaving work at 6 is 'early'.

To pay a £40k salary you need to earn around £75k because you pay your tax on that £75k so to get £40k left over to pay a nanny that's what you have to earn.
Most nannies will not cover evenings, overnight or weekends (unless you pay them even more!!!). So even with a full time very expensive person around, I do all nightime wakes, weekends - any time I myself am not physically at work in my paid job. This isn't a moan, just a reality check that money can only go so far.

I also have cleaners in a few times a week because (many) nannies would rightly view themselves as childcare professionals and do not do housework. Also they are busy with the kids. And I work full time so I'm not there to do it myself. Between cleaners and dry cleaning and some help in the garden that's another £200 a week / £800 a month. Let's call it £10k a year so that's the best part of another £20k I need to earn before tax to cover the cost of running a household.

So £75k before tax to pay for nanny and £20k before tax that's a £95k salary you could be earning and get barely any change just for a nanny and running the household. Then of course if you want to educate privately, go on holidays in school holidays, clubs, hobbies, instrument lessons...

I earn more than the OP and am constantly skint, my lifestyle absolutely has changed beyond recognition. I do not begrudge my kids the money I spend on them but it would be daft to say being a high earner has cushioned me from kids changing my lifestyle.

Even if, in some alternative reality, you did want kids, would you want kids with your present husband?

Being brutally frank, he sounds a bit shit. Lazy, hands-off and happy to leave the mundane realities of life to you. That's fine at the moment - with two adults, there isn't usually a lot of mess and you can both have time to yourselves without impacting the other person.

The problem with children, especially babies and young children, is that you can't do a lot of the stuff you've previously taken for granted unless you have a supportive spouse. And I'm not talking about weekends away with friends, yoga retreats or travelling with work. Just simple things.

If you have a baby with a lazy, selfish partner or one who's never around, the following things will become much harder:

• Showering/having a bath regularly. And any privacy goes out the window since you need to supervise DC from the bathroom.
• Getting regular time to exercise.
• Having a decent night's sleep. Or even enough sleep to function properly.
• Having hobbies.
• Going out in the evening. Ever. Because your partner just won't put the effort in to learn how to do bedtime for the kids. And so your presence will always be required.
• Having lunch out with friends. You'll be sent pictures of your screaming baby to encourage you to cut lunch short and hurry back.
• Having 10 minutes in the morning to get dressed in peace without someone screaming at you.
• Getting out of the house on time for work. You'll have small people to dress, breakfast to make, bags to pack and no one to share the load.
• Eating breakfast.
• Cooking. The baby will want feeding just as it's time to cook dinner. This is especially difficult with two children, when you actually do need to feed your older one.
• Eating a meal in peace. Most of your mealtimes will be spent looking after others - cutting up food, feeding children, fetching drinks, cleaning up spills. It's easy to end up stuffing the odd mouthful in now and then, and eating chocolate bars later because you're too tired to make anything else.
• Having a lie-in. They will come up with some reason why they need two lie-ins a week, and it's ok that you never ever get one. Even during holidays. And on Mothering Sunday.
• Cleaning. You need hands to clean. And some babies like to be held the whole time. And when they're on the move, sometimes it's impossible to do stuff safely with them around. 'Divide and conquer' works well here - one does chores, one does childcare. But that doesn't work if you're married to an lazy arsehole, obviously.

Meanwhile, your partner never misses work drinks, goes out with their friends, has hobbies, manages to go to the gym three times a week and gets plenty of sleep. At your expense.

This is the tip of the iceberg. Having children in an unequal relationship often feels like signing away your personhood, your right to matter as an individual. You're treated as a 24/7 carer or household appliance. Your needs are swept under the carpet and ignored by the person who should be supporting you. You should be partners, but instead they're exploiting you.

I'd not only be saying to your husband, 'No, I don't want children' but 'No, I don't want children, and even if I did, I'd think twice before having them with you'.

Great points about the financial side. And does having a full time nanny take all the mental work away from the mother? If there's a problem at school, is the school happy to meet with the nanny instead of the parents? Does the nanny arrange extra tutoring if your child is struggling or work with a psychologist, etc? If the nanny gets sick, do they take a sick day (unlike mothers who usually end up taking care of everyone while they are sick)? As wonderful as a full time nanny is, do they supply all the love and affection or will a child likely demand extra attention from you when you get home exhausted from work and wake up more during the night for extra bonding time?

I don't understand the people who say you can just outsource everything -- plus, you don't know how extreme your instincts will kick in and override what you think you are going to prioritize. I think that's why a lot of high earning women become SAHMs when they thought they were just going to slot having a child into their busy lives. For various reasons, your life could end up looking very different to how you planned and no one can give you a guarantee as to how that will look.

I agree with @KingsHeath53 . Unless ‘higher earner’ DH is earning premiership footballer style wage which run to several hundred thousand per week, buying in sufficient help to not have to change your lifestyle is very very unlikely. I’d say to change nothing in a person’s lifestyle with a child means at least three nannies per child for 24 hour care 7 days a week 365 days a year so over £120,000 per year out of net income plus probably a full time housekeeper also on £40,000 per year.

I would also be concerned that a man who does no household tasks now is the sort to find someone (younger who doesn’t have responsibilities) to be ‘spontaneous’ with. I may be a cynic but I can see some men justifying this sort of behaviour because their wife has ‘changed’. OP could end up left with the baby when her DH realises having a baby is not at all like living in a Boden advert.

No, just as some women know and have always known they want children, some know they don’t. I hate this idea that women don’t know their own minds
Absolutely, and I'm not defending the other position. Saying that some women discover that they love being a mum after becoming one doesn't undermine the fact that some women know for sure

But OP seems to be asking about the former as if she absolutely certain she does not want a child, there would be no dilemma.

The question is whether her uncertainties and current feelings could change. Unfortunately, nobody can answer with certainty.

Seriously? That's awful fucking advice. Women and men who aren't sure they want children shouldn't have them. Children aren't accessories.

Honestly, I don't think this is right at all.

From what the OP has written, it seems very clear that she doesn't and hasn't ever wanted children.

Her husband was undecided but apparently "fine with it either way." Her husband is now set on having kids and is threatening divorce if she doesn't give him a child.

I don't think it's a matter of OP being undecided about if she wants kids. It seems to be that she wants help to navigate a very tricky situation that has no easy answers.

Of course, no one can know for certain how they would feel if they had children until you have them. It's a massive risk if you're already on the side of "I don't want them" to have them and hope for the best.

Are people really so careless with the creation of a human life that they're happy to chance it on the off-chance of it working out?

Women and men who aren't sure they want children shouldn't have them. Children aren't accessories.

Well said @readbooksdrinktea

But OP seems to be asking about the former as if she absolutely certain she does not want a child, there would be no dilemma.

There is ALWAYS some dilemma when this happens. Mainly thanks to us hearing how our life will never be complete, how we will neverlove anything, howwe can't be actually a caring person, how we will die alone, how we are selfish, how we are immature obviously, how we are broken aince e don't want to do what we are made for.

I amvery mmuch a no camp and even I sometimes think "maybe I should tho" then I remember that I don't want to, but nearly everyone else wants me to and go back to "nah, not for me".

Children aren't puppies you can rehome when you realise they too much work. You don't have one "just in case".

Are people really so careless with the creation of a human life that they're happy to chance it on the off-chance of it working out?

I think that's rhetorical, but anyway. YES

I hate this analogy. You also shouldn't get a puppy then rehome it cos it's more work than you thought. They're also living beings who form attachments to their new families. No living being should be brought into a family that isn't fully committed to them.

If you don't want a child, don't have one to make someone else happy.
Let him divorce you.
The cost and upset from that would be over faster than 18 years raising a human that you dont want.

Yet people do it. Often. Then post about it on MN.

DP has always wanted a dog. I didn't. We got one because he promised he would look after it and walk it every day. But he doesn't. I have to do it or else the dog doesn't get walked. It leaves hairs everywhere. It's whiney. We can't just go away spontaneously anymore. Our lives revolve around this dog. I can't face 15 more years of this.

Then there are countless replies of "Rehome it." "Do nothing for the dog." "DP wanted it, make him take care of it." etc.

Yet there are people on this thread encouraging the OP to have a human she doesn't want, which comes with even fewer options if she absolutely hates the impact it will cause.

Both are bad. I don't know how we've gotten into this world where people think it's ok to question people's choices about their own lives and bring lives of innocent humans and creatures into families that don't want them or aren't prepared for them.

I amvery mmuch a no camp and even I sometimes think "maybe I should tho" then I remember that I don't want to, but nearly everyone else wants me to and go back to "nah, not for me"

I find the opposite, just as shown here on MN. Don't have a child if you're not 150% certain you want one. I wouldn't exist if that had been the case, nor my nephew and others I know who gave all grown up very happy and loved.

My point is that OP is looking for an answer here that we can't guide her towards because it all comes down to her level of certainty that she doesn't want a child. If 100%, than the answer is easy. Anything less and it's up to her if she wants to take a risk and decide whether losing her husband is worth a 99% chance she would end up very happy to be a mum, vs a 50% likelihood, vs 20% etc... and considering the outcome if indeed she absolutely hated being a mum and what would happen then.

Some (a lot of?) people just can't imagine how other people might not see things the same way they do. I didn't think I would love a baby but I did so I know you will too.

And general selfishness and entitlement. I want a child therefore I will have a child whether it will be good for the child or not. Seen by how many women have children with shitty men just because she wants a child.

People take it personally when someone else doesn't think a choice (they made) is necessarily the right choice for their situation.

I don't understand why some people in this thread think it's never okay to ask a woman if she might have changed her mind re: kids as she progresses through her 30s.

Some women don't. Some women do. Many of the women who do change their minds, previously were very clear and consistent about never wanting them - until they did. Many women have children despite having some private doubts. Some of those women regret it, some don't. Life is uncertain and full of risks.

OP's current life is no longer one of the options on the table. Stay with DH and have a kid, leave DH and stay childfree are her two options. Only she knows her levels of certainty and fear and excitement for each of those two options. Posters are allowed to tell her that they went for the first option and it was okay, same as for the second.

@Middlelanehogger But she hasn't changed her mind. She's saying she never wanted kids but her husband is pressuring her to have them. She's worried if she has kids just to stay in the relationship, she'll resent him and the kid. It's irresponsible to tell her to have a kid regardless of her own feelings, because she may change her mind once the kid is here (and it's too late).