What is going on with British kids?

[FrenchAreDoingSomethingRight]

On holiday in France. An upmarket holiday camp and we are the only British family here. It was recommended by a French friend and I didn't realise it only has French families on holiday

Dinner is set 3 course dinner. My kids are 5 and 3. My older boy has ADHD we think (referred by school), our younger one doesn't as far as we know. Both kids are trying their hardest at dinner. There is v loud music playing and the pool party bit is still open. They run off after every course for a dance. Older one tries to stand up sometimes. We have colouring in books etc. Really they're fine. At restaurants and pubs they are totally average in terms of being able to sit at the table. No screens.

Not a single French kid has done anything wrong. No screens or even colouring. They might not all be talking to their parents but every single one is sitting through the whole 90 min dinner and waiting to dance at the end. So patient.

Do no French kids have ADHD or ND? Or even just kid like and cheeky? I have always tried my best with dinner times but these kids aren't even considering running off.

What is going on???

Agree.

👏👏👏👏

UK children are given screens in a restaurant from buggy age so the adults can have a conversation uninterrupted. I won’t lie, I try hard not to judge other parents as a whole but I really hate it! I met my husband when his oldest, my DSD, was a toddler and since the age of 2-3 we’ve taken her to restaurants and involved her in the conversation, choosing, ordering, etc. Not three course meals at that age 😆 but a quick family lunch in a pub etc. She’s now 8 and could sit through a three course meal without a screen easily. She reads the menu, orders her own food, converses with the staff politely, because it’s been taught. French families probably do similar with higher expectations so they will be better at it.

"has been referred for" doesn't mean "has".

LOL. In my house the phrase "ADHD is a reason, not an excuse" is used a fair amount. DD got her diagnosis (yes formal PP who doesn't believe in it) years ago and tried a couple of times to get away with things. Nope.

You can raise a child with ADHD to behave AND be happy. But you need to do your homework and work with the ND.

I lived in France before coming here. The old lady neughbour who did babysitting for my friend jokes she would spank the kids if they misbehave. The mum and all other adults did not criticise her at all. Adults are much more old fashioned towards upbringing

One of my kids has asd and adhd(inattentive type) and he sat through meals, both of mine did. We didn't smack them or threaten them. They were just told from an early age that we sat down together to eat. That's what we always did so that is what they always do(although they are teens now). When you always have certain hard boundaries kids tend to respect them without even thinking.

UK children are given screens in a restaurant from buggy age

Maybe it’s what you see but it’s not the case everywhere

We definitely didn’t

We stay on a lot of French campsites and I've noticed that in general the children play much more quietly than their British counterparts where loud screaming seems to be the norm.

As a result, most non-British European and Asian kids are more aware of how to behave in public, because the public will literally tell them how to behave.

I think this is true. People parent as a cohort with fairly similar expectations. If I have paid for McDonalds, I am not going to bother about unruly kids for 20 minutes. If I have booked a restaurant for dinner, then I want you and your kids to sit down, eat nicely and not feel free to career around like feral animals. I don't GAF about their freedom to explore their boundaries. I have boundaries too, and where someone trespasses on mine, and it impairs my enjoyment of the experience I am going to pay for, then I feel irritated. And I think you are a shite parent because you are not bothering to teach your children how to behave in public... frankly.

Hmm.

Me too (Irish Catholic).

We sat utterly patiently & quietly at Mass... from birth, it felt like. My parents wouldn't tolerate any messing. It was 70s/80s Ireland for me & hence still the decades of thundering sermons from the priests. I used to be terrified.

However, we were that good, in my case, and most of my friends, as we knew we'd have been murdered, absolutely wooden spoon / slapping territory, if we misbehaved.

It wasn't even that they said anything to us each week. It was just Not Done.

So overall I'm not a fan of having small kids being afraid.

My own kids were always pretty good in similar situations but not perfect - no messing, running around or noise but I would also distract them or take them out, within reason

Been reading here for a few years which tbh is enough to see how different our culture are, lived in England for 6 years.

Are you saying most people are eating together around a table (with a fork & knife when needed) 2-3 times a day in England?

I agree! I am not British but live in the UK raising British kids.

British parents - your kids are fine!!!! They really are. They're fine, chill, pass them a colouring book, pour yourselves a glass of wine and resist the urge to proclaim "it's simply down to expectations. We never allowed naughtiness when mine were small" 😁 two reasons:
A. No one believes you.
B. Dancing in between courses is great fun and we should all do it when the opportunity presents

My kids are 4 and 8. We’re British. They can sit through a meal at a restaurant when we’re out, without screens. We’re not particularly strict but have set boundaries around this, so it’s just what they are used to I guess. They’re not ND though.

I’m often shocked by how rude other kids are in my very middle class area.

My kids save their rudeness and running amok for home! They are like little cherubs when out and about.

Yes this! My parents didn't make us go to mass but I went to a Catholic primary school which involved going to church quite regularly. None of the kids would make a peep! We were all too scared to be told off. Very boring at the time but it definitely taught some discipline and patience

A number of issues are creating long term problems, and that has been the case for people that are becoming parents now as well

Another poster mentioned delayed gratification, this is key, no one wants to, or is able to, wait for anything any more or be told 'no'. Adults and children struggle more and more with the concept that something is not going to happen, not possible, you cant have this, or you have to wait.

Screens are key to this, they wire the brain in a way which means that the skill of boredom and patience just isnt learned

Also others have mentioned the boundaries and expectations of behaviour, manners, situation specific behaviour (so what you do in the park is not what you do at the dinner table)

And while the French may not be fully accepting of some disabilities, the reality is that children who are ND still need boundaries, they still need expectations and strategies to manage themselves. The narrative on here is often that behavioural expectations should be low because of x, y, z disorder. They might be different and take a lot more work but not lower.

My daughter has been eating out her whole life - I hating cooking. She is perfectly able to sit for a long period of time. Yes she takes a notepad and pens or her doll but never ever screens. I find them rude at the dinner table not to mention isolating - my husband and I much prefer to engage with her.

Think of the French adults you see on holiday. A lot of them are extremely rude. So I’m not sure what is gained by getting them to be mini-adults as children. I’m not saying French people are ruder than others — more like it all evens out.

So basically you lot are saying coporal punishment is very effective & a good thing?

I mean, I did smack my own kids a few times. But normally I'd be vilified for it not exalted.

I suspect there’s an intolerance to neurodiversity in France (actually most differences). France has Some of the worst mental health and significantly higherSuicide rates than the UK. So I’m not sure teaching kids to not express themselves is something to aspire to tbh.

Theres a balance between kids sitting silently at tables doing nothing and kids running amok

Just pure luck in your case.
There's different levels to ADHD....unfortunately mine had/has the most extreme.

You think most English people don't use cutlery?

It’s definitely not everyone! But it’s a lot, as the dining hall in my school will attest to! Unfortunately, over a decade of teaching has taught me that parenting by screen is massively on the rise and it is having a huge impact on children in a variety of situations. Dining appropriately is just one of them. Some of it is also COVID related, in my opinion, where screens became less optional, but ultimately its parental choices that are causing most of the problems.

I think in mainland Europe socialising is geared up to include children. There’s no “kid friendly” places because everywhere is kid friendly.
Less of a drinking culture - a glass of wine or 2 maybe but I’ve noticed here it’s pint after pint with some families.
I also think the levels of recorded ADHD/ND are super low in France. I understand some kids genuinely do have issues, but I feel some parents push for an ADHD etc diagnosis because it gives them an excuse to not parent bad behaviour, they can just say “oh it’s his ADHD”.