What is going on with British kids?

[FrenchAreDoingSomethingRight]

On holiday in France. An upmarket holiday camp and we are the only British family here. It was recommended by a French friend and I didn't realise it only has French families on holiday

Dinner is set 3 course dinner. My kids are 5 and 3. My older boy has ADHD we think (referred by school), our younger one doesn't as far as we know. Both kids are trying their hardest at dinner. There is v loud music playing and the pool party bit is still open. They run off after every course for a dance. Older one tries to stand up sometimes. We have colouring in books etc. Really they're fine. At restaurants and pubs they are totally average in terms of being able to sit at the table. No screens.

Not a single French kid has done anything wrong. No screens or even colouring. They might not all be talking to their parents but every single one is sitting through the whole 90 min dinner and waiting to dance at the end. So patient.

Do no French kids have ADHD or ND? Or even just kid like and cheeky? I have always tried my best with dinner times but these kids aren't even considering running off.

What is going on???

Lots of people talking about kids being bored out of their mind while adults talk.
This shows a fundamental misunderstanding. Activities are not separated into adult and child activities. Eating a family meal and a talking is also a child's activity. Children brought up with this enjoy talking to their family and getting their attention.

Nope I'm not. I am saying that with ADHD there is not support put in place to check for other known causes first.

There are plenty of examples on this thread of people having long routes to diagnosis involving other investigations but you don’t seem to be listening. You are hell bent on your theory that labels are slapped on kids easily. You seem to be the one having trouble understanding what you are reading.

So you aren't inclusive to those with such conditions now? Righto.

Umm, nothing? Maybe somewhat different culture re. food and eating out, but nothing extraordinary.

You’re saying that about all ADHD diagnosis pathways that you’ve come across in your professional capacity? Have you raised this concern within your workplace?

I’ve re read my post and I don’t believe anywhere did I say you didn’t know anything about autism I wouldn’t have a clue whether you do or not🤷🏼‍♀️

I also don’t believe that because you’re diagnosed you’re qualified to assess who is or isn’t worthy of their diagnosis. Unless that is your job? 😬

We've definitely let our boundaries drop over here. I'm a waitress and nearly every kid over here needs a tablet to keep them still or they run around while other people are trying to eat. This very rarely happened 10 years ago. (I'm guilty of this too, I take my own sticker book and crayons for my 2 year old)
Also, it's quite rare for families now to tidy up abit before they leave. I was so busy at work yesterday (10 hours with no break and over 9 miles on my Fitbit) and the amount of broken crayons and spit out food all over and under the table was shocking. It does feel a bit disrespectful.

My mam always made us clean up the large bits of food and never let us leave much of a mess when we were out for food. My mam also reminded us to say please or thank you as well. I don't think one kid actually said that yesterday. Most of the time they were running around or their parents had to order for them as they were glued to the tablets. (Just to add I work at hotel as well)

I am telling you that from experience, they check but they do not do anything to investigate. They basically ask how their diet is but the child is NOT put on a diet to check. They take their word for it that diet is fine etc. They do not check mental health, they also take their word for it. I have flagged up countless times that kids need mental health support and it is ignored during diagnosis.

It is true more junk food is being consumed in countries like France than used to be,
But you would never get what passes for school dinners in the UK in France. And kids menus in restaurants with cheap fatty processed food is horrendous. Childrens diets in the UK often seem very poor.

When we were little we visited very wealthy relatives in Paris and were asked by my parents to behave nicely. One night we were taken out to a fancy restaurant and we were the only children to sit for the whole meal. My great aunt commented on this in utter shock as the Parisian children ran about letting off steam. I remember wishing I could too but it was just a few hours out of a very nice holiday. I wonder if both your experience and mine are just ‘snapshots?

@LaDamaDeElche i know we are lucky, it’s one less thing to worry about (in a long list!). My other child’s diet has expanded over time but is still very limited.

British people are just so different from Europeans all rounds. Ultimately maybe that's why we broke away in the end.

We are Europeans, you dingbat!

No you were labelling me as attributing ASD to poor parenting when I had never even mentioned ASD or parenting at all. I had not even said anything at all about ASD, YOU were the one who decided I was on about that and decided what I thought about ASD which in turn was saying I knew nothing about ASD. You were saying to someone with ASD they knew nothing. Not even sure why you brought up ASD and poor parenting as I never did, can you explain why?

No not weird, I do know that. And of course not all children are ND

Are you saying the parents are lying then when they seek help? I don’t understand why mental health concerns raised by a professional (apparently) are being ignored by other professionals. Doesn’t that worry you? Is that not misconduct?

The medication of ND kids is very corrupt I’ll certainly give you that - just as with antidepressants.

But this does not mean that those diagnosed with what we (I think inaccurately) label ADHD are just “naughty”

What is ADHD (or any diagnosis) it’s just a list of symptoms grouped together.

I prefer the term neuro diverse, brains and minds working differently to the norm this can make a world set up for the norm very difficult to navigate and it’s useful to have an explanation for this. An explanation is not an excuse.

Yep agree. I think it's lazy parenting to say "I'm just letting my kids be kids" or "at least they can have fun".

I'm French and could easily sit through a long meal as a child (2 hours +) and so can all my nephew and nieces. They are very happy, honest! They just chat to each other, laugh etc. You know, all the things we did before screens at the table!

My kids are being brought up in the UK and they are somewhere inbetween, a mix of both.

I get a bit self conscious when we go to France as they are definitely a bit more unruly than French kids, it's just how it is, they have been influenced by both sides.

But I also blame screens 100%.. I've never given my kids a screen to keep them quiet in a restaurant or in the car so they are very good at keeping themselves entertained with a book or some colouring, or just chatting and are quite calm and patient children as a result.

Some do, yes. Many do not see diet as an issue. In all the kids I know who have had a diagnosis, diet has been shocking but has been said that it is fine.

Also some (before the idiots say not all) are lying to cover up abuse which they are doing to the child which is causing the behaviour in the first place but that is another thing we often ignore. It does worry me completely and when you call it out you are ignored, the kids don't get the help needed and that is an issue.

I agree with others. It’s not the kids, it’s the parents. When ours were small, they behaved exactly as the French kids the OP describes. They simply would not have dreamed of getting up from a table during a meal, be that at home or out. This was not luck, it was because we wouldn’t accept any other behaviour.

So many of my friends would just shrug as their kids ran amok and ate like pigs at a trough. Those kids are young adults now and still don’t know how to eat a meal in a civilised manner.

I’m not sure if you’re specifically just talking about ADHD or not (which I have no experience of) or all ND.

I mean, this is actually what I said. Since ADHD comes under the umbrella of neurodiversity I was simply empathising with the parents of those you have decided were diagnosed inappropriately.

Again, I didn’t say you knew nothing about ASD so I’m not sure why you keep saying that. Your experience is clearly very different from mine, as it will be from the next person.

Can you share where I have ever mentioned the word 'naughty'?

I'm hoping when DD gets out of the difficult teenage phase she'll start to become interested in a wider range of food. When she was very young she had a really good varied diet and from around 7 onwards it just got progressively worse and worse.

I would say that it’s extremely worrying, but not surprising- mental health treatment is a black art, there’s actually very very little decent mental health support out there, most is one dimensional. To treat people effectively for mental health conditions it requires a multi disciplinary team looking at mind and body as well as soul. The medical professions structure is far too siloed to ever be truest effective - much better to just Medicate to mask symptoms

Your children are a reflection of yourself and your expectations of your child. You reep what you sow I'm afraid!

My DD is 14 - we have been involved with CAHMS since she was 18 months old.

I have pretty much every parenting book going. I tried every strategy anyone suggested.

Family history has diagnosed ND going back generations - and rather a lot of suspected but not formally diagnosed.

We could not medicate DD for years because of a growth problem - so we waited till she was past puberty and growth spurts before seeking a formal diagnosis (it was first discussed by professionals when she was 5) and choosing to medicate.

DD has also been referred for psychotherapy to help support her - it's not just meds.

She masks well at school and out - she can sit in a formal restaurant no problem at all, but we all pay the price later - mainly her. So yes, I have let her have screens because it makes everything more pleasant for everyone - and guess what, I'm often exhausted from normal life, parenting DD and my own neuro-diversity and need to not be constantly telling my child not to do x, y or z or arguing with her.

Medication was very much not the first port of call but the last. Having seen the results so far, I now have immense guilt over how much easier her life might have been had I pursued that route earlier (and sod the potential inches that might have been lost).

What is incredibly hard for parents of ND kids is that you know that half the world are thinking you are either a lazy parent, or that you just rock up to the clinic suggesting ADHD and they just hand you an Rx for amphetamines.

The reality is that it's huge amounts of paper work, questionnaires, reports, interviews, medical examinations etc to get the diagnosis. When you have had to jump through all those hoops, have your parenting put under the microscope, it's actually a bit of a kick in the teeth to then have people with almost zero knowledge of the condition tell you how everyone is 'buying' their child a diagnosis, or sticking pills into their child to avoid having to take responsibility for being a parent.

Funnily enough, yes, lots of us are on forums - probably because we have worries, we are hoping to find answers, new strategies, or just other people who know what the reality is of watching your child struggle in a world designed for NT brains.

I remember when she was 4, and we were really struggling with her extreme demand avoidance, that a friend told me that she found if she just got down and said to her child 'Jane, we don't do that' that it worked and had I tried it? Hahahaha...

I asked what she would do if Jane didn't comply and if no consequence worked. Would she shout at her? Beat her? It's extremely easy to be a great parent if you have a child for whom normal rules work - not so easy when you have one for whom rewards and consequences are of zero interest.

It's also worth remembering that ADHD has one of the highest rates of heritability of any neurodiversity - around 74% - so it is quite likely that a lot of parents of children with ADHD have it themselves and will find it a much harder challenge parenting that an NT parent would.

I work in FE.

I regarly hear, 'I can't help it, I'm autistic/have ADHD etc'

Well, yes (I feel like saying) it's not an excuse to behave like an entitled monster.

I have raised lots of children (step/birth/Foster) the amount of self entitled behaviour from some of the 16 year old at work is truly shocking. When meetings are held with parents they lay into staff and back the YP up.

They expect us to respect them but don't return the favour.

Example: constantly shouting out, back chatting, questioning why we are using a specific text in a lesson and not one THEY would prefer and when asked to behave so others can learn they say they can't help it 'cus of my ADHD'

One of mine was diagnosed ASD. It's not a license to act like a knob.

The ones we deal with who are 'higher on the scale' are often much more polite and you can see the way the way their parents have modelled to them come through in the way they speak.