What is going on with British kids?

[FrenchAreDoingSomethingRight]

On holiday in France. An upmarket holiday camp and we are the only British family here. It was recommended by a French friend and I didn't realise it only has French families on holiday

Dinner is set 3 course dinner. My kids are 5 and 3. My older boy has ADHD we think (referred by school), our younger one doesn't as far as we know. Both kids are trying their hardest at dinner. There is v loud music playing and the pool party bit is still open. They run off after every course for a dance. Older one tries to stand up sometimes. We have colouring in books etc. Really they're fine. At restaurants and pubs they are totally average in terms of being able to sit at the table. No screens.

Not a single French kid has done anything wrong. No screens or even colouring. They might not all be talking to their parents but every single one is sitting through the whole 90 min dinner and waiting to dance at the end. So patient.

Do no French kids have ADHD or ND? Or even just kid like and cheeky? I have always tried my best with dinner times but these kids aren't even considering running off.

What is going on???

You know the 'it takes a village' thing that MNers bang on about endlessly?

In my experience, having lived in France, Spain, Italy and East / South East Asia, other nationalities take this quite seriously, BUT it includes the village giving badly-behaved children a bollocking when necessary, which would absolutely not fly with most British parents.

They're fine with 'the village' fawning or doing the grunt work, but heaven forbid an unrelated adult tells a kid to cut that shit out.

As a result, most non-British European and Asian kids are more aware of how to behave in public, because the public will literally tell them how to behave.

Looks like we have the answer. British parents have low behaviour expectations. And low experience levels of sitting in proper restaurants. And using knives and forks. And no it isnt about not having fun, it is about appropriate behavioir, as a pp already said, Children in the UK have the lowest levels of life satisfaction across Europe

The French just have a different attitude to mealtimes in general, e.g they have a two-hour lunch break, with proper sit down meals, even at school. It’s cultural.

And ours have 40 minutes in secondary school. It’s awful.

This. Anyone who has encountered a group of French kids on a school trip over here can testify to this.

I say this as someone who has a French mother. It wasn’t until well into adulthood that I realised that being terrified of your mother wasn’t a universal or normal experience.

Yes and they can’t even get lunch during that time because there is a queue. It’s no wonder they see mealtimes as something to get done and move on.

Of course until Thatcher privatised it all secondary schools had proper meals at lunch here too.

I totally agree.

There’s a book about this, I can’t remember what it’s called. French kids are expected to eat several courses very politely from a young age. French parents are much stricter about boundaries etc.
I remember a French friend putting out a kettle of boiling water next to my toddler and she said to me “don’t worry, I have told him not to touch it.” They do it differently in France.

Because other countries don’t pander to children like they are the rulers of the world. Children are expected to sit quietly at meal times and not need constant entertaining. They don’t feel the need to stick labels on every child, particularly not the ones whose behaviour is actually a result of poor parenting and lack of boundaries. Unfortunately a lot of parents see their child’s label as an excuse (“oh I can’t stop him doing that, he has ADHD…”)
It is absolutely shocking how badly behaved children are in the UK in general.

As children, we were expected to sit quietly to eat a meal. If we finished, at the end, someone would take us to play outside if the pub had a little play area. We were absolutely not allowed to get up between courses, run around or play.

@SunThroughTheCloudsAt6am

And there lies the problem, you would rather chat with friends then involve your children. I brought my (now adult children) my way and they were included from babies eating out and dinner parties, they were expected to converse with adults. My way and I believe it really paid off because as young adults they can cope with formal events like work cocktail parties with senior guests etc my dd has thanked me

My 7 year old could sit through a 2 hour formal dinner in a suit on a posh cruise ship for 7 nights in a row. Top trumps are great, played quietly between courses - no need for screens. What you do have to do though is engage with your kids.

I think it's a cultural thing as well. French people I know tend to have meals together rather than going out drinking, they sit round their kitchen or dinner tables to talk with friends and family for hours rather than lounging on the sofa, they have long (very long!) family meals, they make sure they sit down together and have a few courses even at lunchtime. Its much more of a cultural norm than in the uk where a lot of people dont regularly do this. So everyone including children are used to sitting at tables for longer periods of time than British people. Just my experience

I live in France. French kids are not fed sugar for breakfast, lunch and dinner (cereals, bread, pasta, chips etc).

For everyone talking about expectations...what does this look like in practice? We have always had sit down dinners, no screens, told our kids to sit on their bottom etc and yet still they are trying to get away and not able to focus on their food when surrounded by all the holiday excitement. I agree about the expectations but I just can't imagine what are those French families doing differently when they're little ones first try to leave the table? Shouting at them? That would only make the situation worse in my experience

My ds can cope with formal events too. He goes to lots of them through work. He had his Gameboy at Pokédex at meal times out.

And strangely enough he managed to get a high flying media job. This involves lots of formal communication and talk. And yet he manages it all perfectly, despite being allowed screens at the table 22 year ago🤨

Mmm, think it is about parental expectations and setting a good example for children to follow. I am surprised (in a bad way) when I see the number of small children plonked in front of a screen when eating out. How will they learn patience, manners and the art of conversation? It also shows them that they are valued.
When families leave tables I've also been disgusted by the mess that is left behind- mountains of food on the floor and all over the table. I know small children are messy eaters but if you clean up after them, they will learn that that is what you do to be tidy and treat the staff with respect.
It's not rocket science and the vast majority of people will willingly make an exception for a child with additional needs.

Maybe because they do it all the time now

Interesting point about ND kids being left at home and not taken out. I wonder if that's true. No idea if France has similar rates of ND.

A meal out when I was a kid was a huge treat. So we behaved without having to be told to.

Has anyone heard of this book, French kids don't something something? Surprised it's not been mentioned

In my head it's the 'mass' test, I'm Irish Catholic and in 1980s when i was young all children went to Mass, it was scandalous not to. A toddling child may be kept home but from around 2.5 or 3 they were old enough and everyone i know sat there through the most boring drivel imaginable without distractions. We were usually allowed a book but no talking or messing. It was 45 mins every Sunday without fail. I often wonder why it was possible, I work in pre school now and any training always mentions how pre schoolers cannot sit still and it shouldn't be expected... but what about all those generations who went to mass? They were not neurologically different, just trained differently

My DD is not quite 4 but she’s really easy going and can sit nicely through a meal
without toys or anything-she’s actually quite chatty though with a big vocab so she makes decent conversation and she loves food.

We have only one, high expectations, no sign of any additional needs and a willing child. But her friends are very similar to be fair. I’m not claiming it’s particularly to do with us though. When I was little I was, according to my parents, an absolute doddle as I liked adult company. My DBrother was high energy, dyslexic and couldn’t sit still. He couldn’t sit through a meal until he was really old!

We haven’t allowed screens yet (apart from
limited TV) and we do insist on good behaviour so DD just models what she sees I guess. But it is far easier with one compliant child!

I've only ever seen that at cheaper places like chain pubs which mainly cater for families. Not proper restaurants.

The first thing I thought of when I read your post, OP, was the book French Women Don’t Get Fat.

The author talks a lot in there about French culture versus US culture (she's a business exec and I think lives between the two), and one of the points she makes is the way French people treat every meal as an occasion (which obviously influences what's normal for those children) whereas it's not typically like that in the US.

If French children are sitting down to long family meals every day of their lives and other children aren't, then of course those French children are going to find it easier - they've had a lifetime of daily practice.

I think all parents have different things they will tolerate and different hills they will die on. Personally I don't care if my 4yo does a sticker book or does colouring when out for a longish meal. It's not important to me that she sits quietly for 90 mins taking part in conversations. She will have plenty of time to do that when she's older. I do care if she disrupts other people, so I wouldn't stand for running around a restaurant and screaming, but I wouldn't particularly mind if there was a nearby play area attached to a restaurant and she went there to play between courses.

Some of this will be cultural, some of it will just be what is important to parents. Some things that I don't accept might not be that big a deal to other parents and vice versa.