What is going on with British kids?

[FrenchAreDoingSomethingRight]

On holiday in France. An upmarket holiday camp and we are the only British family here. It was recommended by a French friend and I didn't realise it only has French families on holiday

Dinner is set 3 course dinner. My kids are 5 and 3. My older boy has ADHD we think (referred by school), our younger one doesn't as far as we know. Both kids are trying their hardest at dinner. There is v loud music playing and the pool party bit is still open. They run off after every course for a dance. Older one tries to stand up sometimes. We have colouring in books etc. Really they're fine. At restaurants and pubs they are totally average in terms of being able to sit at the table. No screens.

Not a single French kid has done anything wrong. No screens or even colouring. They might not all be talking to their parents but every single one is sitting through the whole 90 min dinner and waiting to dance at the end. So patient.

Do no French kids have ADHD or ND? Or even just kid like and cheeky? I have always tried my best with dinner times but these kids aren't even considering running off.

What is going on???

The question is, OP, what harm were your kids doing going off to dance between courses? Were they disturbing anyone? They are kids and they are on holiday, so what if they go and do some dancing when there's a nearby party on? Would you have felt bad about it if you weren't surrounded by children sitting quietly? What was the harm done other than to your own self-confidence about your own parenting? What was the benefit of those French children sitting at a table compared to your own kids, other than appearances, assuming your children weren't disturbing other people or causing a nuisance?

My philosophy is that I am pretty relaxed about a lot of stuff as long as no one is being inconvenienced or disturbed. I don't have an issue with kids getting down from the table early to play, and I don't have an issue with them doing colouring books (I don't like screens, but colouring and sticker books etc are okay) in a restaurant if they're happy doing it. It isn't an important parenting thing for me. It's important to me that they respect other people, they don't scream or disturb others, and I am strict on that, but it's not important to me that they sit for 90 mins until they're told they can get down from the table. It's not an aspect of parenting I find interest in or that I think is important for how I want to parent my kids or that has much relevance when they get older.

Maybe it's the upmarket part? I lived in France for ten years and knew of plenty of rowdy kids who wouldn't sit through a meal.

How old are your perfect children?

And you really only encountered wholesome ball games? I am surprised! I was a French teenager in France and this was not my experience.

Indeed😂

Good job they didn’t try to set nap times with my ASD Dd when she was a baby. She never napped!

There is a book called "French children don't throw food" is a great book and explains the reasons as to why they are so much better behaved.

@explainthistomeplease Unpopular view but I really do blame screens. My kids (now in mid twenties) were perfectly capable of sitting through a meal out from pre school age. We also expected them to do so. I'm not sure (many) parents today do.
<ducking for cover now>

I agree, I think technology has its place as it’s a different world for children to grow up in but I don’t think a child watching a screen while out and about does anything for them. It has a negative behavioural consequence which is pretty apparent and the more they have a screen shoved in front of them while out from a young age the less they learn to entertain themselves, to be bored, to look around, to chat etc. I honestly thing iPads in restaurants and the like is short term gain with long term pain!

I did NOT grow up in this country and I can tell you that Kids in this country (including mine) would NOT last a day in other countries in terms of discipline!

My children wouldn't dream of leaving the dinner table and can concentrate on a meal as we have always had family meals from 6 months old. No one leaves the table until everyone does.

I was put through that. It was really unpleasant because I am autistic. Plus if you realise during the meal that you need a wee, you are basically praying that your parents will finish before you wet yourself.

Don't lump all British kids with yours. Mine could sit through a meal and have conversations from very small. It is down to expectations and being used to sitting at a table. And manners being taught and boundaries set.

That’s not a negative.
I grew up when smacking was incredibly common in Ireland, it’s not a good thing.

How often do you sit at your table as a family to eat at home, without a tv/radio/screens to hand? You'll find mealtimes are proper events in France. The family will sit at the table to eat breakfast, lunch and dinner with only conversation and food to focus on. In England, we are much more likely to eat dinner on the sofa in front of the TV, or quickly inhale a sandwich while staring down at our phones.

You then go on holiday and expect your kids to know how to do what the French kids do day in day out. It's their norm, but totally alien to your kids.

As an aside, I host foreign students in my home. The French teenagers we have, whilst capable of good table manners, are generally quite sullen and aloof.

sums it up.

French are stricter and believe in a time and a place for everything. Walk past a park, a playground or anywhere child friendly, the children are having as much fun as any child over here.

It's their national day, the local children will also be allowed to stay up and have fun much more than the English children are tolerated.

They are also taught to behave when appropriate. Here we have more parents like this one, playing the "kids will be kids" to excuse lazy parenting or lack of boundaries and manners.

No discipline. Lack of boundaries. Absent fathers.

@Tinybrother I've no real idea what I encountered 25 years ago in honesty, I didn't note it down at the time. This evening I encountered a notable difference between French teens and local British teens of a similar age. That's all I referenced 🤷🏻‍♀️

Discipline is much firmer both from parents and in schools etc.

Totally different culture around food and mealtimes.

Less acceptance of neurodivergence.

More cultural conformity- children and adults are expected and put under greater pressure to follow certain social norms.

I don’t know about Europe but parenting is probably going downhill here because a lot of parents both work so you get your kid home, put the tv on, give them some shitty microwave meal or some pasta and pray they go to sleep quickly so you can have half an hour to yourself before it all starts up the next day.

I imagine in days gone by the whole family would sit around the table enjoying a delicious home cooked meal that mum made, while chatting about the day and teaching the children how to sit nicely at meal times.

Sadly for a lot of families in this country it’s no longer affordable for one parent to stay at home and make dinner etc for the family. Although granted this won’t be the case for most mumsnet posters on salaries > 150k…the cook can probably whip up a nice healthy dinner!

The food we eat is crap in the UK, the hours we work suck and it’s hardly surprising a lot of our kids don’t know how to behave themselves at meal times.

Same for synagogues! I've been taking my DD since she was 1, and she can now sit through a 3-hour service (she's 2yrs10m) if she has a teddy and book to occupy her. Any misbehaviour was trained out of her by disapproving looks!

They're well behaved so they're not allowed to have fun? Bit of a reach.

Our system, and I have one with ADHD, is scales of manners:

A manners; sit both arse cheeks on the seat. No screens, no books at the table, talking politely, perfect table manners. Perfect pleases and thank yous and impeccable behaviour.

B manners; nice, not overly formal. Probably a little like yours were. Still no screens though.

C manners; louder, cutlery is fairly optional and food dependent, get up and move around, still no screens.

D manners; eat with your hands, shout if you want, grab stuff, lick your plate. STILL no screens.

A manners is a nice restaurant. B is grandparents' house, C is normal dinner at ours, D is a family BBQ or once in a very long while at home.

Before we entered a nice restaurant, I'd say, "what manners?". DD described A manners to me. She's older now so A is everywhere! But she could do it fairly young. And our favourite restaurant has a French Maître D' so I told him to enforce it with a rod of iron

There was no negotiation. We just left if she didn't do it.

discipline doesn't mean "smacking". It really does not have to be one of the extremes, feral children vs children beaten to submission!

My children are 16 and 19 they asked to get down from the table. We also have a no screens at the table rule. I may have used the odd sticker book but only while waiting for the food. They first did 3 courses (and coffee) at 4 and nearly 2 also in France. Helps if you don't allow snacks except for the 4pm gouter so a clear 2 hours without food or caloric drinks before meal times. We ate at the table every night all together from ages 6 & 8.

ADHD everyone has it don't you know, and therefore excuses are made for every step out of line

🙄nice bit of discrimination going on there. Lovely🤮

just can't imagine what are those French families doing differently when they're little ones first try to leave the table?

tell them no. They do learn, even if it takes a little while.

You can say "no" to a child when it's about running across the road, or put their fingers in an electric plug, why wouldn't it work with table manners?