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Original poster

What is going on with British kids?

1000 replies

FrenchAreDoingSomethingRight · 13/07/2023 19:41

On holiday in France. An upmarket holiday camp and we are the only British family here. It was recommended by a French friend and I didn't realise it only has French families on holiday

Dinner is set 3 course dinner. My kids are 5 and 3. My older boy has ADHD we think (referred by school), our younger one doesn't as far as we know. Both kids are trying their hardest at dinner. There is v loud music playing and the pool party bit is still open. They run off after every course for a dance. Older one tries to stand up sometimes. We have colouring in books etc. Really they're fine. At restaurants and pubs they are totally average in terms of being able to sit at the table. No screens.

Not a single French kid has done anything wrong. No screens or even colouring. They might not all be talking to their parents but every single one is sitting through the whole 90 min dinner and waiting to dance at the end. So patient.

Do no French kids have ADHD or ND? Or even just kid like and cheeky? I have always tried my best with dinner times but these kids aren't even considering running off.

What is going on???

OP posts:
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Karwomannghia · 13/07/2023 23:28

I had French pen pals growing up and they were very strict around meal times and other quiet times. Lots of hitting which older siblings then did to younger. We had to clean grandma’s house every morning.
I had a French boyfriend and he wasn’t allowed to use the toilet in the night. He used to wee in a cup. (Aged 18).
when they came to us they let it all out to put it mildly.

happyasaseagullstealingchips · 13/07/2023 23:28

Don't want to believe that so many people are setting a society up as their ideal that believes in locking away and treating those with disabilities as lesser.

What a world.

P.s ADHD and ASD is very much genetic in myself and my son's case as it's linked to a genetic condition we've both been diagnosed with.

labamba007 · 13/07/2023 23:31

I also find it very interesting that in many French restaurants they don't have a kid's menu. It's whatever is on the main menu as a smaller portion.

Wincher · 13/07/2023 23:32

We've been on a couple of all inclusive holidays in the last year with family from all over, though not from France particularly. I was really shocked at just how many kids seemed to have screens at the table, even at breakfast. It was just ubiquitous from babies upwards. My kids have never been allowed screens at the table and they felt rather hard done by! These were kids from loads of different countries, USA, South America, etc. it's not just a british thing

Iolani · 13/07/2023 23:33

@VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia
had to look up what you meant by Flushed with Pride
so you mean Thomas Crapper

No no, he’s way too late.
Definately not his invention
The books absolutely wrong.

As I understand it, and I could be wrong, but as I remember from my days of studying pipework requirements for sanitary installations ( yes one of the boring bits of architecture ) Crapper was the first to mass produce flushing cisterns.

Honeychickpea · 13/07/2023 23:38

Cherryana · 13/07/2023 21:16

There is something about the food though. In the U.K. I have to avoid diary and gluten. When I go to France I can eat the pastry’s, baguettes with no issue. Is it just the sun helping my gut? Less sugar? Better ingredients?

That's interesting. I have a friend who says the same thing about the bread in Israel. She had no problems with it there.

Sweetashunni · 13/07/2023 23:42

OMG12 · 13/07/2023 23:27

Children grow into adults, the Situation in France is clearly more detrimental overall to mental health - I would suggest the attitude to children is probably where a lot of it starts

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You’re wrong there! France is 3 places above us in the child happiness index.

https://www.unicef.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Report-card-briefing2b.pdf

https://www.unicef.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Report-card-briefing2b.pdf

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 13/07/2023 23:43

Londisc · 13/07/2023 23:10

@VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia what in particular do you think are the strengths of the UK systems of education v the French one?

We aren't talking about schools, we are talking about table manners and parenting. I have no recent experience of either education system and my experience of the French school system was brief.

OMG12 · 13/07/2023 23:44

Sweetashunni · 13/07/2023 22:50

are the U.K. mental health statistics better?

Show quote history

Yes I posted links up thread

Mamai90 · 13/07/2023 23:46

SpidersAreShitheads · 13/07/2023 20:34

France has a rate of 69.30 children per 10,000 compared to 78.10 for the UK. Source: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/autism-rates-by-country

However, I would strongly suspect that the lower rate of diagnosis is at least partly due to the fact that autism and neurodivergence is still such a stigma in France.

My inlaws moved to France and we could have gone with them, but life would have been spectacularly shit for my DC (both officially diagnosed). Autism and associated spectrum disorders really are considered to be "less than" in French society. In 2018 - which I know was a few years ago now - United Nations said that France was 50 years behind with its treatment of autism, and also said that autistic children were being subjected to "widespread violations of their rights".

Autistic people are far more likely to be institutionalised, and be separated from the community. Autistic children are not widely welcomed in mainstream schools. The barbaric process of "le packing" was outlawed in France in 2012 but they've continued to do "studies" on the effectiveness of this "treatment". (Packing is basically stripping a child to their underwear, wrapping them in freezing cold, wet blankets and then talking at them while they're cold and shivering for 45 minutes).

I can't imagine that any country which has such shambolic practices towards their autistic community would be taking their autistic and neurodivergent children out to public spaces very readily. You're only seeing the ones deemed to be acceptable.

Of course, there are multiple factors also at play - and I think it's a combination of lots of the answers given by PP. Socialisation of children, attitude to meals, fewer screens, stricter parenting, etc. But please don't underestimate the impact that your child's ND brain will have on their behaviour - it really is very hard when you have ADHD. It's not a made-up condition as many strict parents often assume and you can't discipline the neurodivergence out of your child.

While no one wants to see children screaming at the table and running around, I'm not especially keen on seeing rows of quiet, obedient children who are overly subservient to adults either. Going off to play between courses seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Also, I'm autistic and ADHD too. So according to France I'm worth less as a person. France can get to fuck.

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France can get to fuck in my opinion too.

Sounds like a horrible place IMO.

Iona345 · 13/07/2023 23:48

Sorry but I think the UK have terrible standards and expectations at family meals. Feeding the kids separately to adults, different dinners, not eating at the dinner table etc... I'm in the UK but my kids can sit at a table for hours as I've engaged with them and eaten together since day dot. They eat everything and i cook from scratch and encourage different foods. I'm a single mum too so pretty time poor but this is really important to me. Result - kids that are a joy to dine with.

gherkeen · 13/07/2023 23:50

ComtesseDeSpair · 13/07/2023 19:49

There is much less tolerance in France than in the UK of poorly behaved children, and still much more stigma than in the UK surrounding intellectual disability / special needs. Parents of children with behavioural issues are thus more likely to simply stay at home rather than go out to somewhere like a restaurant where they know the behaviour will be looked on disapprovingly, and less likely than UK parent to actively seek out diagnosis to explain behavioural problems.

I'd say there's more tolerance of children in Italy... More than the UK or France. But the Italian kids behave well.like this too

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 13/07/2023 23:50

Iolani · 13/07/2023 23:21

Excavations at Knossos found flushing toilets.
Not an overhead cistern as the water source was serving a line of communal toilets. The water was stored overhead ( they believe on the floor above ) and flushed through to the pans to clean.

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I am astounded.

Londisc · 13/07/2023 23:50

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 13/07/2023 23:43

We aren't talking about schools, we are talking about table manners and parenting. I have no recent experience of either education system and my experience of the French school system was brief.

Show quote history

Ah yes sorry I was using 'eduation' in the french sense, which is obviously not something you understand.

gherkeen · 13/07/2023 23:50

Iona345 · 13/07/2023 23:48

Sorry but I think the UK have terrible standards and expectations at family meals. Feeding the kids separately to adults, different dinners, not eating at the dinner table etc... I'm in the UK but my kids can sit at a table for hours as I've engaged with them and eaten together since day dot. They eat everything and i cook from scratch and encourage different foods. I'm a single mum too so pretty time poor but this is really important to me. Result - kids that are a joy to dine with.

Same here.

Foxesandsquirrels · 13/07/2023 23:51

Callyem · 13/07/2023 19:46

I'm going to say it. We have lower expectations and don't enforce boundaries. I'm not commenting on my personal feelings towards enforcing said boundaries or whether or not I feel it is worthwhile, but if we did as standard, our children would also sit through a meal.

This essentially. We've used various diagnosis as an excuse for a lot of behaviours.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 13/07/2023 23:52

labamba007 · 13/07/2023 23:31

I also find it very interesting that in many French restaurants they don't have a kid's menu. It's whatever is on the main menu as a smaller portion.

That's one thing that I do agree with. The "kids menu" is so often boring junk food.

gherkeen · 13/07/2023 23:52

Londisc · 13/07/2023 23:50

Ah yes sorry I was using 'eduation' in the french sense, which is obviously not something you understand.

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To clarify in Italy they'd happily watch kids dance between courses. They don't have screens etc though

Boomboom22 · 13/07/2023 23:52

@Jojobees try the Holland eurocamps. Usually cheaper, often nearer to the channel tunnel than the French ones anyway and less judgement 😁

gherkeen · 13/07/2023 23:53

Sorry Londoac I meant to quote a different post of my own there. I need my bed!!!

Sweetashunni · 13/07/2023 23:53

Screens are a vicious cycle. British parents seem to tire easily of parenting their hyper, needy kids, so put them on screens so they can have a ‘break’. But the screens just exacerbate the hyperactivity, so the parents struggle even more, wheel the screens out again, and on it goes.

Iona345 · 13/07/2023 23:53

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 13/07/2023 23:52

That's one thing that I do agree with. The "kids menu" is so often boring junk food.

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This too - we've dumbed down children's food. I HATE a kid's menu of beige. Most good restaurants will offer a smaller adults meal or we small plate and share. No way I'm eating fresh seafood and my kids get frozen nuggets.

MmmALovelyBitOfSquirrel · 13/07/2023 23:56

I must have raised french kids. Mine are teenagers now. They've always had access to computers for gaming. They have zero issues with concentration or knowing how to behave in a public setting. They've always been parented to be aware there are others around them. They can have fun but be respectful of their surroundings. I think actual parenting is a thing of the past for too many kids. We'd only eat in 'posh' restaurants maybe twice a year as they grew up but not once did I have to be abrupt or forceful to them to sit nice. They just did. We simply talked as a family while we waited. Though the topic wasn't always the best for dining but we made sure.to be quiet enough that no one overheard our weirdness 😁 people had kids for the benefits and council house, in my town. The kids are treated like cats, put out first thing and not allowed back in until evening. They're the ones who are destroying the town with graffiti and antisocial behaviour. Not the kids playing at home on the computer with their friends. 100% it's the parents lack of parenting, for children with no SEN etc.

gherkeen · 14/07/2023 00:04

Honeychickpea · 13/07/2023 23:38

That's interesting. I have a friend who says the same thing about the bread in Israel. She had no problems with it there.

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I find the same. Even wholemeal bread here is ultra processed and contains emulsifiers.

57% of British food is ultra processed
Compared with 14% in France and 13% in Italy.

i find avoiding the sweeteners and emulsifiers in those foods makes me feel better.

It figures that if there's less of that kind of food abroad, you feel better when you eat there.

RichardsGear · 14/07/2023 00:04

gogomoto · 13/07/2023 20:04

@SunThroughTheCloudsAt6am

And there lies the problem, you would rather chat with friends then involve your children. I brought my (now adult children) my way and they were included from babies eating out and dinner parties, they were expected to converse with adults. My way and I believe it really paid off because as young adults they can cope with formal events like work cocktail parties with senior guests etc my dd has thanked me

But I don't want to go to a dinner party or to a restaurant and have to talk to small children (or big ones for that matter!).

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