MIL 'speaking out' on H's behalf regarding DD's studies

[shecanshewillmil]

DD is 4 and starting school in September

I do basic learning with her but in addition to this, she is learning to play piano, she swims twice a week and does gymnastics. I enjoy talking to my daughter, and naturally we have conversations about interesting, education topics, worded appropriately for her age groups

Disciple is important from an earlier age. It simply makes your life easier. In the end. I do not hit my children, I mean self discipline. DD has to put her washing in her basket and knows how to separate white washes, strictly. She is good at this. Puts her shoes away properly. Knows not to take more stuff out without putting the other stuff out

Puts her bed together in the morning (with my help, I want it done properly).

MIL pulled me aside at the weekend to say H was worried about my attitude towards learning. She said he is concerned DD is doing too much. I said did H really say this? She said well, no, but I know he feels that way. H says to ignore her

I said no, she's happy and balanced. There isn't even a mention of her disliking anything yet. She enjoys her activities

DD had a disabled brother and knows she is fortunate not to have these barriers, and should appreciate life to the full

AIBU to say it is not her place? She lacks personal discipline and it shows. Sadly, we must all do it to succeed

Perhaps this is a cultural thing. H is white British. I am not so. But I have to say, I am from a working class background and by no means 'middle class'. But opportunities and exposure through fun is important to me, parenting wise! It builds children up for success and happiness. These things set the foundations for a happy, comfortable life.

To be honest playing at filling a dishwasher doesn’t sound like much fun to me! Why don’t you fill a big bowl with water and a squirt of washing up liquid then give her a pile of plastic plates and cups to wash out in the garden . Or get some of her toys and wash them. I used to wash my dolls clothes and hang them out to dry, that way I guess I was learning about doing the washing but having fun too. Then use the soapy water to water the plants, thereby teaching her about nature and how plants grow!

I think that what I am saying OP is that you can teach your child about the jobs that grown ups do, but you can do them in a way that is a lot more fun for the child than making their bed , sorting their dirty clothes and passing you items to go in the dishwasher.

This is definitely a cultural difference I think. You sound like a very good parent and mil should respect how you choose to raise your daughter.

The activities sound great so long as the approach is flexible and she still gets to go to any kids parties she’s invited to.

Regarding the laundry sorting, putting clothes away etc. that’s basically chores and I wouldn’t personally ask my child to do this at such a young age. Some kids her age can’t even dress themselves. There is some kind of middle way where a child can still be a child and the relationship of parent to child is provider as well as teacher. Regarding the bed making? I can’t imagine this very well as we gave duvets. I encourage straightening of the duvet after getting up and also after sitting on the bed though.

This is likely a 'lost in translation' issue. Or me not using words that fit quite right

For example, fail. It's a very loaded term I suppose, in English. I just mean 'get it wrong'. Not 'Omg you failure' type of vibe

OP, I think an important thing to take away from this thread is that what your daughter is doing now at 4 is quite unusual in British culture, which is why you've hit a nerve with so many posters as well as your MIL. So I would encourage you to at least have some understanding of where your MIL is coming from!

Looking realistically at your posts, I actually think you've found a good balance between the extremes of British culture (4 year olds having no responsibilities or activities) and your own culture (4 year olds being regimented to within an inch of their lives).

Like other posters, I would be slightly concerned about your daughter feeling under pressure because of her disabled brother. But it sounds like you're taking that on board.

Also, my MIL is a music teacher and says there's no real benefit to starting an instrument before 7/8. By the time she reaches that age, the kids who are just starting will catch up very quickly. But if she enjoys it, that probably doesn't matter.

I think you're doing well, OP. Your daughter sounds lovely.

See, I had the opposite experience. Never had any of that. My sibling is severely disabled needing 24 hour medical care, yet my parents never made me feel lesser than my sibling.

I grew up knowing I more fortunate than my sibling, not because of what my parents said, but because I could see the very obvious differences between us and the knowledge I would have a higher quality of life.

Op- is this what you mean? Cos if so, I can understand it

Honestly you sound fine. I talk to my 5 year old DD about all sorts of things and try to get her to be as independent as possible. She does the activities your DD does but we don't put any pressure on her and she does them because she enjoys them. It's about degrees - you can take it too far or keep things relaxed. Only you know where you sit on the spectrum.

@hedwigismyowl the op says she actually tells her daughter she's lucky she can speak.

This is very true, children who have a high need to achieve but also a high fear of failure are often afraid to take risks or be creative in their learning, and in the end do not meet their full potential because they are unable to learn from making mistakes , don’t develop resilience and perseverance and give up if they think things will be too hard for them to achieve perfection. They also find it hard to work with others, share ideas and accept that sometimes other people have good ideas too.

In the uk its very unusual for children (apart from those from asian heritage) to start learning musical instruments so young because british approaches value learning to read music & sight read well rather than memorising pieces. We also aren't very competitive about it - learning an instrument is valued for pleasure, many people aren't interested in taking exams, or trying for selective orchestras.

Very few 4 year olds learn to sight read music easily or practise regularly without prompting from parents, so there's an assumption a parent is pushing in the wings. Many teachers won't even take a pupil under age 6 or 7.

Is the way of life you lead typical for your culture OP? It’s atypical for English culture ( sorry, that’s the only one I’ve got extensive knowledge of) so it might make your DD feel different to her peers when she starts school?

I’d rather this than feral kids with no respect for anyone or anything, humans or animals. But she has plenty of time to sort washing and make beds, at 4 there are more important things to learn tbh. She is not a mini you, she is a child.

I do not hit my children, I mean self discipline.

This line stood out to me. I’m not from England, luckily I’m from a Scandi country where hitting your children is not an option. Shocking even thinking you had to mention it. Makes me sick.

You are riding your daughter too hard. 4 activities a week, plus household responsibilities and edifying, educational conversations - it sounds exhausting.

Little kids are smart - she knows she is carrying the burden of parental expectations. Because of her brothers disabilities she is having to be both the daughter and the son, the oldest and the youngest. She is fully aware all your hopes for the future are invested in her. She has to be perfect to make up for what he can't be. I'm sure she seems happy because she wants to please you and be the perfect child you need but she isn't perfect and so she is doomed to fail.

I speak with some experience of this - I've been a psychotherapist who worked a lot with young people. It is very common for children whose parents have this level of expectation to excel and excel and excel - until they eventually break, often in adolescence.

My father had a severely disabled sister. This was back in the 1940/1950s when such children were often put in a home and forgotten. My Granny didn't do this. My aunt lived at home and my dad absolutely lost his childhood in being 'the man of the house' taking on adult responsibilities and caring for the home and his sister. He never, ever complained about it, just accepted that that was how his world was but he ended up super disciplined to the point where he had entirely unrealistic expectations of himself and of other people.

You can't raise your child in one culture imposing the customs and values of your childhood on her whilst ignoring the customs and values of her paternal family and the country she is growing up in.

Sounds like OP knows her son isn't going to be able to follow her rulebook, so is loading it all onto the daughter.

What's wrong with making your bed? A life skill - and should be done. It's a good way to 'start' the day, and lots of people find they have more get up and go by just simply doing the act of making their bed

Really is making your bed a life skill? TBH a 4 year old should be full of beans getting up without having to make a bed to get motived about life

“Self discipline. Self discipline. Self discipline”.
What do you even mean by this?
She’s 4. We all parent differently, but expecting a 4 year old to make a bed and separate clothes for washing sounds a bit extreme and so do the amount of weekly activities. Does she go to preschool or nursery?
She’s little. Just let her be little.

My DD chucks her pj’s in her laundry basket while she saunters past butt naked, I reminded her a few times a now she just does it every morning. In a family we help each other so I help her tidy her toys up when she’s finished with them. I don’t see these as chores. She’s not really expected to do anything else (she’s 3). She does enjoy buttering toast and stirring stuff so she does that but no I don’t make my 3yr old cook 🙄 though her Montessori teacher did suggest I show her how to make her own sandwichs for nursery. I don’t pressure my DD, a gentle “ok lets tidy up now, I’ll help you”. It’s what she does at nursery as well, they encourage the kids to do things for themselves,

I don’t understand these things are perceived to be too much for a 4yr old. Op’s DD isn’t doing laundry and cooking is she, she’s chucking stuff in the right basket and I don’t think OP mentioned cooking at all.

I do not hit my children, I mean self discipline.

This line stood out to me. I’m not from England, luckily I’m from a Scandi country where hitting your children is not an option. Shocking even thinking you had to mention it. Makes me sick.

I don't hit my children because I think it's abusive and not needed, weak parenting. I'd never do it. Not sure why it makes you sick though

Some people might've wanted that clarifying as people would have picked up different cultural tones and might've wondered

I am white and British and I think your chores and activities sound absolutely fine. There is nothing wrong with encouraging tidiness from a young age. My DD is 11 now but has always helped in her own way with chores. We tell her it’s part of being in a family. I am often shocked by how little other parents expect of their kids and then they act all annoyed when their kid doesn’t know how to do anything around the house.

Of course it’s not too much!

Yeah it’s the having to clarify that makes me a bit sick. Not your fault, but it’s very sad.

Fun fact#1: Children all over the world who are blessed with the opportunity to help with what we call "chores" actually want to help as toddlers! It makes them feel like a part of the group, and develops their sense of self-worth. (They don't require praise; being accepted as part of the group is all they need to be motivated to continue helping.) If parents in economically developed Western nations weren't so determined to "let children be children" and weren't in such a hurry to get through their own chores, they might actually notice this.

Fun fact #2: Parents who permit their LOs to help (even when it makes the task a bit longer), or give their LOs a part of the "job" that they can handle, are rewarded with teenagers who will do what they see needs doing around the house without being asked, and without complaining.

What we do instead (most of us, but not @shecanshewillmil) is to EXCLUDE our LOs! We actually make them feel that they are unwanted, and because they are incompetent. (Great lessons for the LOs, right?) By the time they are of an age where you will want them to start "accepting responsibility" they want nothing to do with it. Why would they when their whole lives they've been getting messages that they "aren't good enough" for you.

OP, you're doing great. I think your children are very fortunate to have a mom like you. You may think your MIL could be a bit more self-disciplined, but I got no bad feelings toward her from what you said, and given that your 4 year old has nothing to do all day every day, other than the things you listed, she is definitely not overscheduled. (And you are already thinking about scheduling adjustments when she enters school, so I see no issues here.)

I think it sounds like a fun childhood. The days are long and at four the week is a bit of a blank canvass without school yet.
Making a bed and separating the washing is a habit not an activity, like cleaning teeth or brushing hair it's hardly taking up a whole day.
The activities sound nice, my Son was in a class with two children that took time off for music exams in year two, they obviously must have started at least a few years previous to be taking exams, I thought it was good and was a bit jealous that they could afford instrument lessons for a young child, what a nice experience.
My friends nephew was good at gymnastics and ended up spending every weekend and hours after school practicing and having coaching, I thought that was sad as it closed him off from having a varied life, but your dd's activities are very varied.
The MIL comment is a problem, I'd tell her clearly that you and your husband communicate with each other and she is not needed to speak for him. I'd make sure your husband knows that he is to communicate with you about your dd not her.
I get what you're saying about discipline because self discipline starts with these little habits, every good habit is a discipline.

FWIW as some balance to the horror stories of resentful people who had their days filled, I was bored out of my fucking tree as a child, I watched a lot of TV and had very low self esteem. I never had a talent or a hobby, I wasn't worth investing in and I thought that so many things were for 'other people'. I remembering thinking that friends who did dancing or horse riding must have somehow been great at these things to be given the lessons and opportunities rather than the other way around that they are good because they were given the opportunity.

I think maybe this thread shows why mothers are so tired, and underperforming career wise, in the UK?

Your child is not too grand and precious to do an under 2 min chore, in a sloppy way as best as they can, with lots of praise and reinforcement. In fact, kids love it 😁

It's a really great way to teach life skills as well as soft skills, and for kids to gain confidence. The Montessori method advocates this, and Nordic parents frequently start getting their kids involved with chores as young as 2 years old.

As for the activities, I think maybe 1 to 2 activities per toddler is the average, but some toddlers just have more energy and like trying more things! I put my DS in 1 but my eager DD was in 3 as well. I never forced anything on them and let them lead/decide.

This is so true.

It’s all so joyless and regimented and she will feel the weight of crushing expectation even if it is never spoken about.

Four is a little baby imo. My youngest daughter is 3 - she just plays and has fun - she does tidy up her own toys with help and encouragement. She has no organised activities 🤣. This stage of true innocence passes very quickly and I don’t think they need to be mini adults to make them into decent human beings. I did nothing of the sort and grew up to get a Ph.D and good job and generally ok person (though still don’t always make the bed 🛌 lol).

I am recognising some of this is cultural difference but your child is living in England so it is not the norm.

To be fair to your MIL maybe she has a point?