To ask why people are so against giving up meat?

[NewCracker]

Just that really, why are people so against giving up meat?
Without a doubt we know it's better for the environment, we know it's better for our health, we know it's better for animal welfare and it's actually quite expensive. But still as soon as you mention to the greater public about cutting their meat consumption, they get defensive and almost offended.
Would you ever consider giving it up, if you do consume it now? If not, why not?
I'm expecting some hate, this is MN after all, but I am genuinely just curious. Not trying to rattle feathers.

Tell that to her dietician who is perfectly happy with her diet.

I'm not in the habit of force-feeding children corpses like you.

We can all the the very same about you with cognitive dissonance. You obviously proclamation to love animals but still destroy their habitats with your lifestyle and greed for goods.

Let's look at this a little deeper, your currently on MN, using an electric device that has caused untold damage the the environment and countless suffering to make its components, battery's, shipping production ect. It is not essential to you but yet you choose to buy it knowing the environmental impact it has.

The systems, electricity and power you are consuming to post on here to pass time idly by has huge environment impact and every post on here consumes power and creates CO2 causing the destruction of wildlife globally yet here you are

'Let's look at this a little deeper, your currently on MN, using an electric device that has caused untold damage the the environment and countless suffering to make its components, battery's, shipping production ect. It is not essential to you but yet you choose to buy it knowing the environmental impact it has.'

So are you, you hypocrite.

I'm not in the habit of force-feeding children corpses like you.

That's hilarious 😂you people really tell on yourselves.

I never said I wasn't, you are the one claiming others have cognitive dissonance. Don't like it when the tables are turned do you.

@Quinoawoman

I'm allergic to nuts.

I am egg intolerant (cause eczema flares)

I have coeliac

I'm completely diary intolerant

I also have ASD and I have issues around foods - particularly with regard to texture.

What would you feed me?

fernbreeze

I'm kind of curious about the pHd in ecology that you say you have. What was your thesis subject? Did you do a MSc prior to it?

Just that you don't seem to debate in a very... academic kind of way, y'know...I'd expect someone with an academic background to be able to provide more structured and informative argument, and provide some credible and interesting links to research backing those arguments up.

*Fernbreeze · Today 10:50
So can the vegans tell me, what we are going to do with all the land put aside for meat, wool and dairy produce.

What are you intending to grow on the highlands or on the peak district moorland or lowland pastures where cattle, sheep and farming practices conserve specialists habitats?

Here is one example of for you to mull over, because your all so clever.

You ban all management and farming for grouse, sheep on upper moorland, they no longer become managed and the peat layers become deep and when a fire occurs from either climate change or accidental and deliberate fires, because they are unmanaged this in turn causes a deep burn of peat decimating all the wildlife and wiping out the top layer of vegetation for weeks and destroys 100`s of years of peat releasing millions of tons of CO2e into the atmosphere.*

Have there ever been any examples of this kind of burn in the UK? What happened in the thousands of years that peat was being laid down before our uplands were so closely grazed- is there any historical evidence of this kind of burn? Approximately how long would it take for the peat to get sufficiently deep to be at risk of deep fires?

What is your opinion of the practice of "muirburn" on Scottish grouse moors, widely blamed for levelling anything that grows on these moors in favour of heather shoots? What is your opinion of the ecological health of the modern grouse moor, because it is widely reported to be very poor indeed?

The bare peat is now exposed to the elements (aeolian erosion), all the mosses and sphagnum mosses have been wiped out. Carbon is now being released into the atmosphere at a rate of 100 years of carbon every day.

citation for that figure? ^

The peat can no longer hold the huge amount of water it once could and becomes hydrophobic (no longer hold water). it also leaches humic acid into the water ways as its not exposed to oxygen and bacteria are breaking it down, resulting in massive costs in millions to water companies to clean it.

Surely if it was so wet it wouldn't be a fire risk? I do know, from my own familiarity with Dartmoor, that the peat drying out has caused massive problems, but the root cause of this drying was farmers attempting to drain the mires. Work is now ongoing to block drainage ditches and install "leaky dams" in order to rewet the peat.

Flooding now results down stream, VOCs and fine organic particles now flow into lowland rivers and streams affecting the gills of young fish and invertebrates, killing them. and it goes on and on but i cant be bothered to mention the multitude of other effects.

What is your opinion of the commonly held belief that it is deforestation that is the main factor in flooding and runoff, and that reforesting the uplands (especially catchment areas and steep valley sides) is the best way to alleviate this?

What is your opinion on the scientific consensus that it is grazing- especially by sheep- that is preventing this very reforestation that we need, as they eat all the tiny tree seedlings?

*I have only mentioned one effect of changing farming practices and managing land for lives stock. Nature has evolved by our practices.

So yes ill keep eating game, consuming dairy and all the other nice foods we produce and i never even got onto the impact to jobs, lively hoods.*

Really looking forward to some Phd level dissection of the challenges facing our uplands, in line with your insightful comments on this thread to date

It doesn't matter because it is up to them.

Perhaps someone could claim, truthfully or otherwise, that if you lived on a diet of grass and spit that would probably be "better still for the environment". Presumably you would consider that irrelevant because you aren't going to live on grass and spit.

I have known many people over the years who have worked in meat processing plants - at one time they were the major employers in this region - so I suspect I know more about it than you do. Factory farming is not a big thing here btw - and no, animals here don't live in nice little airy barns, they live outside - so yes I am sheltered from that. However, I do know that it is not in the best interests of any farmer to abuse their animals. I also worked in a farm supplies store so I know just how much money is spent on animal welfare.

I realise there are instances of animal abuse, of course there are, but these confronting videos, and the people who avidly promote and watch them, like to give the impression that this behaviour is normal, rather than rare. I've also seen photos in the past telling us how "cruel" sheep shearing is, with the animals covered in blood - absolute rubbish!

Still waiting to hear about how animals in the wild have such a wonderful life (and a gentle, pleasant, death).

You seem to know everyone who can back up your narrative, if you did a little research, you’d realise 85% of meat reared is intensively farmed in the UK, so your comment about the animals that live outside is kind of null, the majority don’t eat that kind of meat.
Animal deaths in the wild is a completely unrelated and irrelevant issue, that’s you clutching at straws to try and dispel my views.
Cancer, diseases, accident etc deaths for humans are unpleasant but we don’t compare that to murder..

First of all I was discussing raised peat bogs of the Peak District, so all your answers based around Dartmoor (Mires, leaky dams, deforestation, reforesting) are based in completely different habitat type and location. Which incidentally and hold little to no value about where I was discussing hence why I mentioned sphagnum moss.

Secondly completely avoided answering the start of my post "So can the vegans tell me, what we are going to do with all the land put aside for meat, wool and dairy produce." . So how about you answer my question first?

If you would like to educate yourself a little, as its not my job. I would suggest you look up moors for the future partnership and also Peatland Restoration and Ecosystem services (science, policy and practice) is a decent read along with Moorland Management for agriculture, conservation and field sports (a practical guide), that way you don't need to ask your family and you may find some answers you seek. 🙄

As for all your personal questions you will not get a reply because 1. I do not have to justify myself to you. 2. its none of your dam business.

No doubt you will refuse to answer me and come back with some cocky comment as that appears to be your MO. Fire off lots of questions and provide no coherent answers of your own back to you. 😂

Not read the thread.

I love meat. I love to pick meat off of bones... chicken wings, or pork ribs. As far as I know, there is no vegan alt for that. Even if there was, it would be all a single texture mush on a bit of wood. No thanks.

News flash - there is a lot more world than just the UK. Many of us live outside it. I don't need to research anything as this thread asked why people are so against giving up meat - NOT why people in the UK are so against giving up meat.

I don't want to give up meat <shrug>

I also don't believe that it's necessarily better for the environment - how many fields are required to grow nuts? Which are then carted across seas?

It would be better if long-distance food was banned and we all ate local. But I live in the uk and don't want to give up pineapples.

Few meat free products taste the same and those that do are often too bloody expensive.
Plus I often work six days a week & haven't got time to hunt down reasonably priced meals etc at obscure shops in or around local areas.
BF got a load of reduced to clear (20p each!) meatfree cottage pies and you couldn't tell the difference from meat version.
Normal price? £2.85 ... so sticking to £1 meat ones from Iceland or 90p ones from Sainsbury thank you.

Also a number of replacement ingredients in veggie or vegan versions caused me toilet issues that went on for days after eating them. Through trial & error about six common ingredients in them causing me problems. Similar meat meals either lack them or have much smaller amount of them.
Also discovered I'm intolerant to Cumin.
So it's mainly poor tasting, expensive and inconvenient.

I would strongly disagree that we "know" most of those things.

What is bad for the environment is industrial farming, whether it's cabbages or almonds or cows or corn. Similarly for our health. The most sustainable farming models are mixed. There is a reason that historically vegetarianism was the privilege of elites - and even they depended on farmers who were not themselves producing in an exclusively plant based system.

Modern vegetarianism and veganism, IMO, very often reflect a kind of dualistic thinking. But in the end, we are all part of ecosystems that involve like and death and we can't escape that. Participating in it consciously is better than pretending we can step out of it and avoid moral contamination.

“Still waiting to hear about how animals in the wild have such a wonderful life (and a gentle, pleasant, death).”

Animals in the wild aren’t bred specifically to live in their own filth, crammed in with many others, being pumped with growth hormones to the point that they can’t move properly, in a space so cramped that when they have babies they end up crushing some of them to death and if they don’t they have to look on helplessly and in distress whilst they get separated from their babies. Wild animals don’t get open wounds that get infected from all the feces they’re forced to live in, they don’t suffer illnesses from ammonia exposure from all the piss they have to live in, they don’t get broiled alive, they don’t get stunned with a bolt gun - repeatedly sometimes because it doesn’t work the first time, and then being killed while the rest are witnessing and some of them try to escape even in panic while it’s happening to the others. And on and on, the list gets worse.

There’s just something dire about breeding animals and forcing them in those conditions. Animals in the wild do suffer yes, but they for the most part aren’t suffering their whole life before dying. It’s usually only the death that they suffer, if they suffer, or if they get an illness. Otherwise they’re free and content until the cat catches them so to speak. Though of course wild animals aren’t free from human activity either.

And yes, intense factory farming is the majority, it’s not just an uncommon thing that happens here and there.

and even if the farmers themselves aren’t adding insult to injury by losing their tempers with the animals and throwing them around, it’s still absolutely horrendous the conditions they suffer in.

unfortunately the environment is probably negatively affected whatever we do, those wild animals would die and do die because of what we do, it’s not just slaughterhouse animals. But again, the slaughterhouse animal situation is just really freaking dire and awful.

the video “dominion” can give people an idea of the very real and very common way animals are factory farmed and treated.

people can eat their meat, but they shouldn’t scoff and deny that these animals are suffering horribly for it and living in a real horror.

This.

Are they really living like that though, in this country?

I used to believe all the propaganda but I don't anymore.

Dominion is Australian if I remember correctly and the laws are different there.

@RoyalGala You didn’t but I’ve seen your other posts in this thread and there’s little point continuing a dialog with you so I was politely ending the discussion.

No need to politely end a discussion that you wasn’t already engaging with me. Your point added nothing constructive to the discussion.

I think that the argument that many animals are killed through crop production is a bit pathetic tbh. Of course it happens but those animals are not grown and harvested to be eaten directly by us. Try harder.

I eat meat but to me that argument is just clutching at straws to deflect from the real issue...that intensive farming is poor and that people don't really give a shiny shit about the planet or anything other than themselves.

Providing food to an overpopulated world is the issue. Capitalism where profit is king is the issue.
Meat provides vital protein and I personally, being pre-diabetic because of genetics, need to eat a high protein, low carb diet.
But then I’m fortunate enough to be able to pay for high-welfare meat. Mainly chicken.

There are so many other environmental and life problems I’d attempt to solve before meat-eating. I have cut down on flying abroad for this reason. But we’re all different, so you do you and I’ll do me.