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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

There are two sexes…

635 replies

ItJustFellOutLikeWordVomit · 23/06/2023 13:34

Well just that really….I have gay, straight, bi sexual and transsexual friends and absolutely have no problem with that, very much a do what makes you happy person.

Butttt….AIBU to think the world is going a bit mad with all the non-female, cis female and whatever other labels are floating about. I’m a woman and that’s that, you are either biologically a male or biologically a female and I don’t mean that in an insensitive way dress how you like and date who you like but surely we can’t just be inventing different/new sexes and telling straight women they are no longer a woman they are now XYZ?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
22
ArabeIIaScott · 24/06/2023 20:17

ThreeB · 24/06/2023 19:13

Our Women's network have recently held an event on the male menopause. It's only in the last 18 months that we've actually got traction on the female one (in our workplace at least) and now the males are in on it too.

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JFC. Are they deliberately trying to piss us off?

Emotionalsupportviper · 25/06/2023 07:50

HarpyValley · 24/06/2023 18:33

“Cis” means “on the same side as”. There are no “two sides” to being a woman (or a man, for that matter). You are either a woman or you are a man. Therefore “cis” when applied to either human biological sex is meaningless and completely unnecessary.

Re discrimination: the comparator for a transwoman is another man. A transwoman should not be disadvantaged when compared to a non-transidentifying man, NOT when compared to a woman. There is no legal right to access the spaces of the opposite sex, when those spaces (be they actual physical spaces like prisons, rape shelters etc or a wider concept such as women’s sports) are a proportionate means to a legitimate aim - in this case providing women with safety, privacy, fairness or dignity. Even people with a Gender Recognition Certificate can be excluded from single-sex spaces because it is understood that a GRC only creates a legal fiction, it does not change your biological sex and the latter matters.

There is no way to “feel like a woman” unless there is one standard against which the concept can be measured. Which woman are these men who claim to feel like a woman comparing themselves to? You? Me? Margaret Thatcher? Mother Theresa? Myra Hindley? Jennifer Anniston? Anne Boleyn? Martina Navratilova? Need I go on?

If you’re a woman and you reject the social stereotypes associated with your sex…good on you, more power to your elbow. That is the essence of being a gender-critical feminist. But thinking that rejecting much or all of femininity makes you a man, or somehow “non-binary” is just regressive nonsense that solidifies those stereotypes.

There is precisely one way to be a woman: be born female and survive to adulthood. Everything else is personality.

Excellent post Harpy Thank you.

Emotionalsupportviper · 25/06/2023 08:02

ThreeB · 24/06/2023 19:13

Our Women's network have recently held an event on the male menopause. It's only in the last 18 months that we've actually got traction on the female one (in our workplace at least) and now the males are in on it too.

Show quote history

A WOMAN'S NETWORK is discussing the MALE menopause?!?!?!?! 😮

FFS!!!

I used to work with an endocrine surgeon - it was around the time the term "male menopause" was starting to be bandied about, though not in relation to "trans" anything - just that "men need cosseting because they're getting older". I can clearly remember that he - a man who rarely swore - said "Absolute shit! We all get older. Only women have a menopause" (Paraphrasing slightly - but the swear stuck in my mind, because unlike some of the surgeons I worked with who eff'd and blinded like dockers, he didn't. We were all shocked speechless. 😂)

But you know - what does someone with 7 years at medical school, full surgical training, 30 years experience in a specialist field, a professorship, authorship of research papers in endocrinology and an international reputation for clinical excellence know about these things?

Emotionalsupportviper · 25/06/2023 08:05

Helleofabore · 24/06/2023 16:27

The issue also with language is that it hides misinformation.

Note how ever many people fully believe Semenya is a woman. Because the media is now restricted under guidelines pushed by Stonewall in how they report these athletes.

How many posters believed it? How many posters believe that Semenya, and the other athletes are ‘female with naturally high testosterone’.. We all saw the headlines. We all have seen the sporting authorities repeat the phrases. We have all seen the ministers of sport from those nations use that wording.

When everyone uses the wording, people accept it. And then repeat it and double down on their fucked up misinformation on these threads. Even better, they think they are morally superior to those who know and understand the truth.

How many people honestly believe female people are being convicted of sex crimes at a much higher rate? How many people believe that female people have suddenly become more predatory?

How many people also then question a person they don’t understand is male being put in a female prison, or taking a medal in a female sport?

But remember, what is the harm in allowing someone to define who they are and choose the words that define them even if that word used to define woman and girls!

That is why women choose to not acquiesce to language demands. So while you, a general you, wish to be kind and nice, stop telling others they are hateful and bigots for seeing the harms that you don’t.

No fucking way do women have ‘naturally high testosterone’ anywhere near these male athletes. Not even those suppressing down to 5 nmols. If a woman has that level, she has a health condition. And perhaps has a tumour that is producing that level. I am happy to post the range for women, including those with ‘high levels’. It is nothing like those athletes.

It is all fuckwittery.

Brilliant post.

The dangers of word-salading (and downright lies!).

ArabeIIaScott · 25/06/2023 09:01

Emotionalsupportviper · 25/06/2023 08:05

Brilliant post.

The dangers of word-salading (and downright lies!).

Show quote history

Hear, hear.

Deadringer · 25/06/2023 14:35

Helleofabore · 24/06/2023 16:27

The issue also with language is that it hides misinformation.

Note how ever many people fully believe Semenya is a woman. Because the media is now restricted under guidelines pushed by Stonewall in how they report these athletes.

How many posters believed it? How many posters believe that Semenya, and the other athletes are ‘female with naturally high testosterone’.. We all saw the headlines. We all have seen the sporting authorities repeat the phrases. We have all seen the ministers of sport from those nations use that wording.

When everyone uses the wording, people accept it. And then repeat it and double down on their fucked up misinformation on these threads. Even better, they think they are morally superior to those who know and understand the truth.

How many people honestly believe female people are being convicted of sex crimes at a much higher rate? How many people believe that female people have suddenly become more predatory?

How many people also then question a person they don’t understand is male being put in a female prison, or taking a medal in a female sport?

But remember, what is the harm in allowing someone to define who they are and choose the words that define them even if that word used to define woman and girls!

That is why women choose to not acquiesce to language demands. So while you, a general you, wish to be kind and nice, stop telling others they are hateful and bigots for seeing the harms that you don’t.

No fucking way do women have ‘naturally high testosterone’ anywhere near these male athletes. Not even those suppressing down to 5 nmols. If a woman has that level, she has a health condition. And perhaps has a tumour that is producing that level. I am happy to post the range for women, including those with ‘high levels’. It is nothing like those athletes.

It is all fuckwittery.

Yes and people who repeat this nonsense tell others to 'wake up' and 'educate yourself'. 🙄

DameKatyDenisesClagnuts · 25/06/2023 15:56

Clementineorsatsuma · 23/06/2023 15:15

The same number of people are born intersex as are left handed. Fact.
It's the most common reason for infertility.
It may not be obvious to the person and many only find out that they are intersex when trying for a baby.

  • citation needed
porridgecake · 25/06/2023 16:01

Did anyone see that episode of Question Time when Lord Winston put his head in his hands when that silly person in the audience told him science had moved on?
She was arguing with him so disrespectfully. Robert Winston. Astonishing. This thread reminds me of that.

porridgecake · 25/06/2023 16:04

"The same number of people are born intersex as are left handed. Fact.
It's the most common reason for infertility.
It may not be obvious to the person and many only find out that they are intersex when trying for a baby".

Just gobsmacked. Do people really believe this nonsense?

ArabeIIaScott · 25/06/2023 16:13

porridgecake · 25/06/2023 16:04

"The same number of people are born intersex as are left handed. Fact.
It's the most common reason for infertility.
It may not be obvious to the person and many only find out that they are intersex when trying for a baby".

Just gobsmacked. Do people really believe this nonsense?

What surprises me is the confidence. Anyone can get confused or have a poor understanding of the issues, that's understandable, but to come out with 'facts' like this with such assertiveness is really quite problematic.

Kilopascal · 25/06/2023 16:55

Is it a confusion between 0.1 (10%) and 0.1%, I wonder?

Kucinghitam · 25/06/2023 17:14

ArabeIIaScott · 25/06/2023 16:13

What surprises me is the confidence. Anyone can get confused or have a poor understanding of the issues, that's understandable, but to come out with 'facts' like this with such assertiveness is really quite problematic.

Show quote history

It's the confidence of being buoyed along upon a fluffy cloud of one's own Righteousness, secure in the knowledge that of course this is Correct and above all Being Kind, and that in the unlikely event that it isn't, one is still Righteous because any pious fraud can be justified in service of the Right Side of History.

TastesLikeStrawberriesOnASummerEvening · 25/06/2023 21:00

Kucinghitam · 25/06/2023 17:14

It's the confidence of being buoyed along upon a fluffy cloud of one's own Righteousness, secure in the knowledge that of course this is Correct and above all Being Kind, and that in the unlikely event that it isn't, one is still Righteous because any pious fraud can be justified in service of the Right Side of History.

Show quote history

Absolutely this.
I also think they just aren't very bright.

Emotionalsupportviper · 26/06/2023 08:15

porridgecake · 25/06/2023 16:01

Did anyone see that episode of Question Time when Lord Winston put his head in his hands when that silly person in the audience told him science had moved on?
She was arguing with him so disrespectfully. Robert Winston. Astonishing. This thread reminds me of that.

Yes - but be fair.

She was a drama student . . . 😄

(Apologies to all drama students who DON'T think they know more about genetics, and the causes of infertility than Lord Winston. A man who is also an award-winning theatre director, as it happens.)

SmartHome · 26/06/2023 08:17

It's lack of education too. In this country you are only forced to do science up to 16 and only at a rudimentary level if you do double award GCSE. Someone that bunked off and scraped through/failed really has very, very little understanding of human biology (or statistics) and hence you get people believing all kinds of rubbish. It's a problem in this country imo, we are falling behind a lot of other countries where young adults are now better educated.

FatNoMoreSue · 26/06/2023 08:39

Sistanotcista · 23/06/2023 13:50

Exactly this. Look up Caster Semenya for a real life example.

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Caster Semenya is a man. He had a DSD that only occurs in men.

ArabeIIaScott · 26/06/2023 09:31

Kucinghitam · 25/06/2023 17:14

It's the confidence of being buoyed along upon a fluffy cloud of one's own Righteousness, secure in the knowledge that of course this is Correct and above all Being Kind, and that in the unlikely event that it isn't, one is still Righteous because any pious fraud can be justified in service of the Right Side of History.

Show quote history

To be fair to those who have adopted these very skewed views, the NHS, the government, the media and the legal system have been complicit in promulgating them.

The BBC showed teachers telling children there were '100 genders'.
The NHS ask men if they may be pregnant.
The Scottish government claim a rapist can have a female penis.
The GRA suggests it's possible to change sex.
The international sporting community has colluded in the idea that Caster Semenya is female for years.

It's fairly understandable that many people have accepted the lies, given the authority of those pushing them!

Sistanotcista · 26/06/2023 12:38

FatNoMoreSue · 26/06/2023 08:39

Caster Semenya is a man. He had a DSD that only occurs in men.

Show quote history

I never stated s/he was either a man or a woman. I merely quoted from Wikipedia which stated that s/he was a woman. I also stated early on in the thread that I was happy to be educated, and have taken on board the comments people have made about using "intersex" and also enjoyed reading the links @LimitIsUp , @BMW6 and @FOJN provided.

hollyblueivy · 26/06/2023 12:43

Is Caster a man though?

ArabeIIaScott · 26/06/2023 12:45

Yes, a man with a DSD or an intersex condition.

loislovesstewie · 26/06/2023 13:39

hollyblueivy · 26/06/2023 12:43

Is Caster a man though?

Yes Caster is a man. We are however obliged under the 'be kind' mantra to say 'she'. because upsetting Caster by being biologically correct isn't acceptable.

hollyblueivy · 26/06/2023 14:22

Does Caster have a penis or vagina?

ditalini · 26/06/2023 14:26

Caster's genitals are Caster's own business, but other people with this condition find that their male external genitalia is virilised at puberty (BBC news story about a village in the Dominican Republic where a higher than average number of boys are born with 5-ARD: The extraordinary case of the Guevedoces - BBC News)

Catherine and his cousin Carla, Guevedoces in the Dominican Republic

The extraordinary case of the Guevedoces

Children in a remote village in the Dominican Republic have an extremely unusual condition.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34290981

LoopyLoo1991 · 26/06/2023 14:31

SummerLovingg · 23/06/2023 13:42

Some people are born neither male or female.

Or have an immunity to male or female sex hormone.
So XY but present as completely female. Only extensive medical scans or chromosomal analysis will show they are actually biologically male.

And vice versa with XX individuals presenting as males.
And that's not even getting into XXY XXXY XXXXY and so on.

Florissante · 26/06/2023 15:02

hollyblueivy · 26/06/2023 14:22

Does Caster have a penis or vagina?

Caster has a micro-penis.