To wonder if there comes a point where you just have to give up work?

[Bluewatersummer]

I’m hopefully not there yet. But while I wish I could be very feminist about this the fact is DH earns a lot more than me and he always will, his talents lie where money is.

With one child we have managed through a combination of part time, taking turns to take time off when needed, and some good luck as well - haven’t had a lot of sickness to contend with. However, I’m due my second any day now and I’m wondering about a whole host of stuff.

It’s going to be so difficult when DC1 starts school and when DC2 is in nursery, reliance on wraparound care and rushing from A to B to C. I don’t honestly know if it is just easier for everyone - not just me - if one parent gives up work and just has their ‘job’ the children and house. Which isn’t very feminist but would potentially make a big difference to stress levels! Honestly wondering what others think: I’m not making any big decisions just yet.

The thread is becoming really circular now and while I am aware it is very hot and I am very pregnant and have gone through some not totally nice memories this morning, I do think people must realise this becomes quite frustrating.

It is not about me ‘not wanting to work.’ I went back full time when DS was 10 months, then part time a year later. As I’ve said, I do three days a week. I honestly don’t mean this aggressively - but does that sound like someone who ‘doesn’t want to work’? (Of course I am currently on maternity leave now.) I’ll be going back for sure - it’s really the year(s) after that I’m thinking about.

@stealthbanana ”how can this possibly be? You pay a cleaner, they come to your house, they clean it. You sound like you are massively over complicating things”

The first part - you pay a cleaner - is right.

What happened to us was that the cleaner was constantly changing, cancelling, rearranging. It just wasn’t practical for her to come when I was off with DS, but she’d often say she’d come at a time and that would be fine as he’d have a class on but then she wouldn’t and arrive back to the cleaner there and DS needing lunch …

The biggest stress for me was getting everything tidy beforehand so she could clean. And she really wasn’t cleaning well. She started out well but then started just cleaning the bathrooms and the kitchen and everything else was very superficial, and the last time she came DH and I worked out she could only have done 45 minutes but charged double claiming she’d had to do a deep clean I know everyone will reply with not all cleaners are like that (NACALT) but she caused a load of stress! It isn’t an experience I want to repeat quite honestly.

Re a nanny, we live rurally, they aren’t as plentiful as in more ‘city’ areas (I’m really thinking London here but probably applies to other areas too.) And would it suit us / our family? I’m not totally sure it would. We all have childcare preferences, after all, and my DS is happy and settled in his nursery.

@GnomeDePlume and @AromanticSpices thanks for understanding what I’m saying.

Sorry but it really is bloody exasperating when you start a thread thinking of possibly maybe but probably not doing something in a year or two years and then because you reasonably point out the answer to life’s problems is not a cleaner you “don’t want to work.”

It’s not the cleaner. It’s that you don’t seem to want to take on board ANYTHING anyone is saying. Your dh can’t possibly do anything differently (despite having flex and goodwill), you won’t look at different forms of childcare, you won’t get a cleaner etc etc. if you’re not happy now and the only thing you’re prepared to change is quitting your job then quit your job! But you’re unlikely to magically become happy with your current set up if you won’t do anything to make it better.

im not sure what’s exasperating about pointing out that you’ve consistently rejected every piece of advice you’ve been given on this thread. What did you want to get out of it OP?

@stealthbanana do me a favour then and leave it. Because I don’t think answering questions is ‘not taking anything on board’ but maybe it is, who knows.

The comments I have had have overwhelmingly been.

1. Pension. Been through this so many times now.
2. Don’t put yourself in a position where you rely on a man. I agree with that, more so than you might think. But I am already doing that by being part time. I am not sure what the solution to this is.
3. It isn’t feminist to stop work. I haven’t really participated in the sub discussion about this - it has been interesting - but I’ve tried to stress here it is the discrepancy between the incomes and not what is between the legs of the people earning those incomes that is the sticking point.
4. Get a cleaner / nanny - not really something I wish to do. I have said a few times that what I think will be more likely than me stopping work is actually exploring the independent school route because of wraparound care, which would mean I work FT. It is ironic that either route means I have no money though 😂
5. ’you don’t want to work’ this is the one that is irritating me I must admit, because it is so patently untrue. It’s true in the sense that I am lazy and do not see work as a part of my identity and would not work if I won the lottery. However, I don’t have a burning desire to stay at home with toddlers. I have two days a week off with mine, I love him and dote on him but JFC (sorry Christians) it is enough for me!

And I have not said any of the above for the first time - it is endless repeating myself, and sorry but it does become really irritating.

You have also had loads of comments about how you need to fix it with your dh. Which for some reason you’ve ignored (as per the above). Why do you think it’s only your problem to solve this? It’s incredibly frustrating to watch. I ask again, what did you want from this thread?

I wish you luck nonetheless.

Yes, we need to fix it by him not doing his job, basically. I’m still unsure what there is to be gained by that.

My summary of the thread is:

I want to work, how can I work?

Get a nanny? Won't work because unreliable

Get a cleaner? Won't work because unreliable

Work part time? Doesn't work (not sure why)

Get DH to do more? That's not possible, he is always unpredictably away. And also he does his share and does have control over his schedule

It gets easier. Explain why? Lots of posters explain why it generally does. OP ignores them

I don't understand why posters think I don't want to work?! I desperately want to keep working but absolutely no suggestions from anyone could possibly work because I am so special and unique

My youngest is about to start school and I feel relief that I have nearly got through the early years. There have been times when it was really tough to carry on working and I think the toughest years were when I had one in nursery and one in school and my youngest was between 18m and 3. That was the really tough year. Things have got easier from then on. Winters will always be harder due to sickness but i now feel immense relief that I have got through it and have good career prospects, significant pension from that time and happy well-adjusted children.

I never think these threads are as black and white as people make them. There are jobs and jobs (some significantly more stressful than others). Family support makes a big difference as does ability to wfh and be flexible. What works for one family won’t work for another. I know and understand those feelings of feeling totally stressed and overwhelmed. There were definitely times I wanted to quit but with the benefit of hindsight I’m glad I didn’t.

@Grumpyfroghats you know, if it has come across like that then I am sorry, because until the last couple of pages I genuinely thought it was an interesting and ‘nice’ thread in that it wasn’t overtly argumentative or anything.

Perhaps my perception of myself and others is just crap and that’s why I’m not seeing what you are seeing

But I do think something huge is missing from your post above. It is not ‘how do I work.’ I do work.

It is more how do you work and not end up pulled every which way.

The thing is, DH and I can and do work around planned stuff, it’s the unplanned stuff. He can’t say to his workplace - look, I’m no longer travelling abroad. I’m no longer travelling further than a ten mile radius away between Monday and Wednesday because my son might be ill and I might have to get back at short notice.

I don’t think anyone actually expects that, surely? Except it seems they do.

As for me being special and unique - Christ, no. Anything but that. I think I am quite unlucky in that both parents are dead and have been for some time and therefore aren’t available (durrr) to help, but I do obviously know that is not a unique or special position.

I am obviously not coming across how I wished to come across and I can only apologise for that and put forward the heat and my late stage of pregnancy and the rather unfortunate circumstances we found ourselves in running up to my mat leave. I really am not prone to making dramas where none exist but I do personally find it helpful to write things down, and that possibly comes across as arguing when actually all I am doing is playing devils advocate in my own mind!

@Bluewatersummer it Is a little frustrating because I don’t think you’ve been completely honest. First you said a nanny wouldn’t work because they might be unreliable, then you said it was because it might be hard to get one, and now I think you’re saying that you actually don’t want to get one, without explaining why?

You must appreciate that if you had issues with your cleaner then you could solve that by getting a different cleaner.

You obviously feel that it would be better for you not to work and it seems you want some validation for that feeling, but if that’s the case you should have said so instead of phrasing the whole thing as a question and then fighting against all the suggestions for how to solve it.

Sorry, yes, to me at least you have basically come across as shooting down every suggestion except for giving up work. That's what comes across as you really wanting to do that. If that's not intentional, I will take your word for it.

I had a go earlier this thread and others have too in suggesting relatively small things that your DH might ask for at work but you seem to wilfully over state the suggestion to make it sound ridiculous. I suggested asking for one day a week to always be a WFH/no travel day.

I would personally be surprised if someone in a niche industry who is well paid and therefore valued had absolutely no ability to ask for anything like this. And the worst case scenario is he asks and they say no. But you seem consistently to say that it's not even possible to try that kind of thing.

I agree. I wonder why the OP is so absolutely certain her DH cannot make any alterations to his job, working patterns or travel, or if it’s ‘will not’?

My DH likewise has a demanding, high-level job in a particularly unforgiving, macho, male-dominated industry, in which he is vociferously judged (and jot just by his industry) for successes and failings — and it’s an industry where virtually everyone at his level is make with a SAHM wife facilitating his job.

But I am not that woman, and made it clear from the moment we decided to have a child that he would be participating equally in all the parenting, because I would be working, too. So he is the one saying at overrunning meetings ‘We need to finish now. I have to pick up my child’, and checking his travel doesn’t clash with a conference I’m speaking at, and having a male CEO doing that openly has probably done more than anything to push family-friendly policies in his industry.

Sure, it would be way easier for him if I were a SAHM, but my work is important, and it’s irrelevant that I earn less than him.

it Is a little frustrating because I don’t think you’ve been completely honest. First you said a nanny wouldn’t work because they might be unreliable, then you said it was because it might be hard to get one, and now I think you’re saying that you actually don’t want to get one, without explaining why?

I don’t think that’s dishonest! All the above can apply. A nanny would be:

1. more than I earn.
2. worries about reliability - going off sick, possible maternity leave etc
3. ds settled in nursery and about to access free hours in six months or so.
4. difficulties in recruitment

You must appreciate that if you had issues with your cleaner then you could solve that by getting a different cleaner

Well sure, but I’m a bit once bitten to be honest, and unfortunately I don’t think my cleaner problems were massively unique ones. In any case, even the most amazing cleaner would only totally solve things by coming every day or every other day - I wish!

You obviously feel that it would be better for you not to work and it seems you want some validation for that feeling, but if that’s the case you should have said so instead of phrasing the whole thing as a question and then fighting against all the suggestions for how to solve it.

I have actually said the opposite …

@Grumpyfroghats

I had a go earlier this thread and others have too in suggesting relatively small things that your DH might ask for at work but you seem to wilfully over state the suggestion to make it sound ridiculous. I suggested asking for one day a week to always be a WFH/no travel day

I’m sorry if you feel I made it sound ridiculous but no, he wouldn’t be able to ask for this. It would be one of those sometimes but not always. He generally does WFH Mondays and Fridays, there is some flexibility on the other days so for example I have a hospital appointment Tuesday and he will stay home then. But if he is abroad or in the UK but somewhere quite remote then no. Quite a lot of work is in South east Asia and in America so you can appreciate it isn’t possible to always be at home Mondays or whenever. It is recently they have stipulated Mondays and Fridays are the WFH days and it’s annoying because if I do stay PT I either have to do first part of the week (Monday - Wednesday) or second part (Wednesday - Friday.) Obviously ideally I would be at work when DH is WFH but that’s not what has happened.

My saying it isn’t possible really honestly is not intended rudely but as you can see above it is just I know the nature of the work and I know that he can’t just come back from Vietnam!

I have to be honest here - I’m feeling a bit attacked and I know that’s probably just lack of sleep and all the rest of it. But I’m not saying anything awful or hugely controversial if I explain what our lives are like.

Sorry, I don't see why it's not possible for him to ask. There will be loads of scheduling things they work around when deciding when he needs to travel, this could be one more. Sometimes they will doubtless say "no, client, that date doesn't work because of another client meeting clash", this could just be a other clash they work around. If they value him and he is good at his job, nothing you have said above suggests they wouldn't consider it.

As I said, what's the worst case scenario? They say no and nothing has changed. But if he doesn't ask for it, he definitely won't get it.

I have asked for and got (and so has my DH) flexible working patterns that no one else has previously had in those roles.

OK, well, I guess we’re not really going to understand where the other is coming from then.

My solution in all likelihood is going to be throwing money at the problem, rather than giving up work.

I will definitely quit if I win the lottery though. Must start doing the lottery!

But he could think about over a period of time changing jobs or industries? If you did want to work and it was important to you and your family that you solve for that. As many of the women and their dhs have in fact done on this thread.

fyi I have a nanny and she has been sick for precisely one day in 6 years. I have a great cleaner who we’ve now had for 11 years. We have zero family support so have built a great network of babysitters who the kids know and trust. All of these things are eminently possible.

im sorry you feel attacked and that is not my intention but it is a bit baffling how negative you are about any suggestion that doesn’t involve you giving up work. For what it’s worth, there is no solution that doesn’t involve periods of time where you WILL feel pulled in too many directions. I have the occasional week where everything is hitting at once / going wrong where it’s hilarious how overstretched I am. But it’s a week. It passes. It’s not a good basis to make changes to my whole life. (And I’m sure sahms have those weeks too - where the kids are being nightmares, DH is being a prick etc). Life is like that with 2 kids regardless of your set up!

Having a SAHP gave us flexibility.

It gave DH flexibility to deal with issues or opportunities which occurred domestically. It gave me flexibility to deal with issues and opportunities which occurred at work.

DH could decide to make trips out, zoo, swimming pool, play park etc according to what worked for him and DCs.

I could come home and say I needed to be in Hamburg the next day and other than getting up a little earlier to get to the airport there was no disruption to the family.

The important thing was mutual respect and communication. I respected how he ran the home. He respected how I earned the money.

There were times when I felt disconnected from home. This would be at its worst when I was travelling a lot. But we kept communicating. I was always careful not to extend trips beyond what was strictly necessary. No extra days sightseeing. I often joke that I have been to the Milton Keynes of everywhere. I would go to the office I was visiting, stay in a hotel nearby then head straight back to the airport.

@stealthbanana i go through this in an earlier post, I’m sorry; I don’t want to be no, he can’t but I don’t see how he could.

I do think that as with many things the hypothetical is worse than the actuality. You think ‘oh god how will I cope’ and then in the moment you just do, somehow.

I say I went ‘back to work’ after DS but it was actually to a new job - hence full time at that point. DH was on his first trip away in over a year because of covid and DS was really unwell, fever over 40 and I was in a bit of a flap as he was only a baby then. I’m more sanguine now! And of course being this pregnant makes everything seem harder work than it actually is!

@Bluewatersummer given your updates about pensions, etc and as long as you make sure you contribute your 35 years NI to the state pension so you get full pension (you can buy them). I think you should do what works for you, and it sounds like giving up work, at least for the next 5 years, would work for you.

My ex husband was armed forces when my youngest was your first child's age and I had to give up for a while because I just couldn't run my 60 hour per week career around the children's schooling/nursery/cadets/swimming/being unwell. You end up in a constant state of stress.

I think that final point is really right - unless you are so wealthy that you can do a Pippa Middleton and not work and also have a full time nanny, whatever you choose will have stressful moments.

Life with two children just is stressful at times, you just choose what kind of stress you prefer.

I much prefer working and I find it overall less stressful. I don't think I have the patience to entertain under 5s all day every day. When they get to school age, I think I would get a bit depressed.

I don't want to take anyone's feminist card away for staying at home with their kids either, if it works for you, that's fine. I was trying to take the OP at face value and suggest things that might help her to stay in work as that's what she says she wants but she had yet to find any suggestions from any of us who successfully work with young children at all helpful so what is the point?

(We have no family support either)

We also don’t have family support.

You’re coming across as really defensive here. We’ve had the same cleaner for 4 years and she is excellent. Just needs a minimal wiping down of surfaces between her visits - i’m not sure how much mess your one toddler generates but that’s fine for us with 2 kids, one of whom is at home full time.

re nanny and nursery, the nanny could look after your baby and do drop off and pick up for your DS. It wouldn’t involve taking him out of nursery but would mean that you had cover if he was ever sick and in the holidays. That’s the arrangement we had and it’s been great. If you think it’s too expensive to commit to that full time there are emergency nanny services who can come at short notice to cover an I’ll child. I was only happy with this if I was working from home to keep ah eye but something that you or your DH could explore with your employers as better to wfh than not at all.

No idea what your job is but is there any scope for moving your non working day to cover illness? And both you and your DH are entitled to unpaid leave each year per child until they are 18.

There are so many different options if you actually want to keep working. Since you’re part time anyway personally I’d be doing everything I could to keep that up as you’ve already got a great balance with work and kids and there are only downsides to quitting imo.

But surely the solution is that he changes jobs to one that can work with the requirements of yours?

DH was in the same position when we had DS — a job that was crazy hours, frequent unpredictable travel to the other side of the world, assumption that there was a SAHM or a wife with a ‘little job’ to pick up the slack. Our jobs suited us both fine before becoming parents — I worked in another country for six months a year for a decade. We both changed jobs to something more child-friendly when I went back to work after DS, despite both taking a significant salary cut.

Your DH is a parent. He can’t continue in a job that requires him not to be available to look after his own children on a regular basis. Unless, of course, he’s fine with not parenting them a lot of the time.

is more how do you work and not end up pulled every which way.
I absolutely get this. Someone upthread (sorry, cba to go and find it) posted their schedule with drop-offs, work, pick-ups, homework, bedtimes, chores then finally sitting down when their DH came home at 9 or 10pm. It’s not a life, it’s an existence.

I’m also currently on maternity and planning the hours I’ll go back on, with one DC in primary and one in nursery, in opposite directions, and I have this big spreadsheet of who needs to be where when, taking into account DP’s commute days and DCs’ tiredness levels (I make children that need tea, bath, bed quite early and very strictly, otherwise all hell breaks loose), homework and hobbies, and my work being strictly timetabled, and it’s just so, so depressing. Every minute accounted, no minutes spare for toddler joy or rage (the “no shoes, no!” tantrums in the depths of winter when you need to leave the house ten minutes ago). Plus it can’t account for illness – especially a nursery bug that gets us one at a time in succession, or extra hassle like a car breaking down or the cleaner being crap or a D&V bug with the nonstop washing.

Yet like you I don’t want to stay at home more than a day or two max with my kids because as you say, JFC. For me I think changing from a very strict “billed by the hour” job with a time sheet, to working for myself, is a better option than quitting – ironically I think I’d work more hours but I wouldn’t have the ball of anxiety in the pit of my stomach I’ve had since starting my current job, where every dawdle on the wall to nursery spikes my blood pressure, and every lunch break is spent frantically adminning to ensure things get done.

Is your career self-employment friendly? It doesn’t suit everyone but certainly knowing I can do my job for an hour at 10pm if I want makes me feel less “headless chicken” when an email comes in from nursery going “and tomorrow is costume day! Bring a £1 even though we all stopped using cash during covid, and handmake an outfit for environmental reasons!”

Final thought: you may have to be the one physically there, rushing about, but can you outsource more mental load or hand over to your husband? Every party invite: snap a pic, text to him and forget it – he rsvps, adds to the family Google calendar, ensures the drawer of birthday cards and presents is kept stocked (even if you have to unpack the delivery he orders from afar). Six-week rolling meal plan so you never ever have to think about it, and he arranges the online shop even if you're the one into receive it. Every insurance renewal, email from school and nursery, etc. Meter readers done when he’s home. Basically he does the bill of mental load because your plate is the physical load. So much can be done online, at a distance – DP does our food order on his commute and as much other admin/thinking/whatever as he can as those days I do drop off, pick up?”, bedtime for two, dinner, etc. He’s the virtual PA (if I win the lottery I’m getting a PA as well as a nanny).

As I said below- unless you have very much 'a career ' that you really need to keep a hand in (I don't think you have said) I would take the time out until 1st child is at school and then re evaluate. Do some online courses etc if you want to keep your brain ticking over- and make sure you have access to your Hs income too so you don't feel bereft without a salary. If you just have 'a job' these are not that difficult to pick up at a later date if needs be. I think these half way betweens never really work with small kids and it's easier if you are earning well to work almost full time and use a nursery/childminder/nanny if you aren't earning a decent amount and yet still rushing around to fit in multiple childcare arrangements then unless it's going to be worth it in terms of hanging onto a professional role that's taken you years to get- I wouldn't bother for at least 3 years I'm not one who loves being at home full time with small children either OP but in your case and without any family help I think it might help you keep your sanity and look at the bigger picture.

It gets easier, fevers now are rare and cold etc gets calpol before school and a ring me if you want to come home. DS loves school so has never asked to and knows he could go to grandmas if he wanted. Suspected or confirmed chicken pox? DS was vaccinated so had few spots was in nursery for 4 days until one came up behind his ear that was definite pox so had 48 hours off until it burst. Really recommend the vaccine for your little one. I also was sent in but now as an adult can't even remember it, if I think of my childhood it's the good times I remember like time in the garden or holidays not having cold at school.

Have you considered going term time only or using unpaid leave for the school holidays?

It's a really tough call and you will figure out the right route for you at the right time. Please trust in yourself when everything is less hormonal 😊
For our family (DH, 2 DC) my husband works and I am SAHM. He works irregular hours and I need to be available for the children out of school hours (2nd child went full time in September). As he is an older dad, it will switch at some point to me working and him being SAHP but this is right for our family now. It is hard being a SAHM but the juggling of work and children would be much worse and not in my children's interest. DH is very involved with the children when he's at home.
I do look for part time work but it is limited - I am just philosophical about the situation! The right job will come at the right time.
Take care