To wonder if there comes a point where you just have to give up work?

[Bluewatersummer]

I’m hopefully not there yet. But while I wish I could be very feminist about this the fact is DH earns a lot more than me and he always will, his talents lie where money is.

With one child we have managed through a combination of part time, taking turns to take time off when needed, and some good luck as well - haven’t had a lot of sickness to contend with. However, I’m due my second any day now and I’m wondering about a whole host of stuff.

It’s going to be so difficult when DC1 starts school and when DC2 is in nursery, reliance on wraparound care and rushing from A to B to C. I don’t honestly know if it is just easier for everyone - not just me - if one parent gives up work and just has their ‘job’ the children and house. Which isn’t very feminist but would potentially make a big difference to stress levels! Honestly wondering what others think: I’m not making any big decisions just yet.

I have no magic solution. My situation is a bit different as I was the higher earner (similar now) and I had children later in life so my identity was very much wrapped up in my work and I enjoy the social aspects too. I also don’t like housework and find that the child-work and house-work seem to go hand in hand when you are SAHM (at least in my case with 2 x 12 month maternity leaves). Why are these totally separate for paid child carer vs cleaner 😏. I find the admin the most difficult sometime - school demands unreal. My DH has some responsibilities ie optometrist but I still do much more organising. To stay married we now have a virtual PA which helps!

@Bluewatersummer I hope you carve the words "my pension isn't important to me" on a little stone somewhere. Pop it in a drawer, make a note in yiur diary to find it on 24.6.2045. I very much hope you will look at it and say to yourself "yep, I was absolutely right not to worry about my pension".

I hope you have it all sorted.

Can you top up your pension? Retrospectively?

It absolutely depends on how your partnership works. Have an honest conversation about what this looks and feels like in reality for both of you. Especially in light of if things don’t work out and where that leaves you financially should you split up. I’m sure it’s very unlikely but it’s an important chat to have. Read Fair Play by Eve Rodsky together (I think this book should be compulsory for everyone in a partnership!) and discuss what a fair partnership looks like for you. Communicate, communicate, communicate. And if you do decide to step away from paid work outside the home for a time, ensure that he’s pulling his weight at home when he’s not at work. So that the household management/childcare is not defaulting to you 24/7 - only during his work hours. Otherwise there’s a chance you end up exhausted and resentful. Use the Fair Play system to decide who takes on what, and never fall into the trap of assuming his time is more valuable than yours just because he’s earning the money. Congrats on your second baby - and take plenty of time to think about it all while you’re on maternity leave like you say. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with whatever you choose, as long as you both communicate and feel valued.

I wouldn't be a sahm. I earned double my dhs salary when we first met. I chose to go part time as his job is in a field with more scope for promotions and pay rises id already hit the ceiling in my field. He asked to wfh 2 days a week to facilitate my work pattern.

My dh does a job that works for our family and a job where he travels away wouldn't so I wouldn't have married him or encourage him to go for that kind of role. Money isn't everything (at least to me) and everything we build and provide for our children we do so together. He is a hands on father and an equal parent and very much a partner. In my view parents who work away often aren't as they aren't physically present enough to be, the chores won't be split 50:50 if said person is home less than 50% of the time. That's fine if the other parent is OK with that but if not that is where resentment builds. I didn't sign up to parent solo regularly wouldn't be OK with this.

My dh has a degree of flexibility in his job and after our most recent baby was able to compress his hours meaning we don't need childcare. which is a godsend as we have no family support. I also work on Saturdays and he doesn't so has the children. This supports me to be able to do a job that pays well but more importantly I love. We work around each other. In answer to your question i do not think it is inevitable but the other partner must value the input your job despite paying less brings to you and ypur family. If he thinks his is more important then you won't get anywhere.

I'm just trying to work with dh to do the best for our family. I think it's OK to do whatever you both feel is on the best interests of yours without judgement.

@RosesAndHellebores I am sorry but I don’t wish to go into intricate details on here, if you don’t mind. What I will say is that I am not making decisions today based on what may happen (or not) in thirty years. I have twenty years of full time pension payments. I also own property that isn’t the one we live in. I’ll also be entitled to a state pension, assuming that it is still around then. I won’t be living in poverty if I make it that far. So my pension is not important to me. Presumably to you it is. Let’s just accept different things are important to different people.

And actually - sod it - let me explain the above a bit more.

I grew up with immensely stressed parents. My dad loathed his job and kept making plans to get out which never came to anything. I think some of that may have been my mum, but not totally sure. My mum didn’t have the same dislike of her job but she had a very long commute (got made redundant in the early 90s and was placed elsewhere.)

My grandfather - mums dad - got ill and demanding and then my grandmother - mothers mum - got ill and even more demanding. Honestly, I don’t have enormously happy memories because my mum was permanently like this wound up bomb that could and would explode any time.

Their ‘down time’ was holidays and we went on so many as a result but they weren’t enormously happy as the pressure to enjoy them was huge. My mum in particular became a heavy drinker. Bear in mind I’m saying the bad here - I’m not saying they were all bad, far from it, but my god it was a tense house.

Their plan was to retire early and live the dream, and they had the pension contributions - except my mum died two years after her mum did As I was still in full time education I got a small amount of money every month as part of her death in service but it probably goes without saying I’d rather have had my mum. And her death WAS linked to her drinking and her drinking was linked to her stress levels.

And we all have lost so much. I coped, which is one reason I’ve got confidence to know I can cope with adverse situations which is good I suppose. It is also why I don’t 100% trust men people, as my dad, who had generally been lovely albeit a bit of a moaner, promptly met another woman and over the course of twelve months I was gradually forced out, and I was very, very young. I won’t go into everything that happened after that. I’m OK now, but i am not going to spend my forties and fifties prioritising my pension either. I really wish I could go back in time and shake both my parents, to be honest.

Look I have no skin in this game as I said, I think it not being something you need to consider must be incredibly liberating and if I may say without being acussed of being ageist an advantage of waiting to have children. However it is closer to 20 than 30 years if you are nearby 43 and 2 things occur to me:

1. Very few people find they want to work full time right up to state pension age

2. Your DCs will still be relatively young and may well still need support, this might be financial or it might just be somewhere to live.

Having said all that owning a property you don't live in (assuming there isn't a huge mortage) is another layer of security. You have waited a long time for these babies if you want to spend sometime out of the workforce why not ?

Also consider using in addition to your maternity leave parental leave before rushing back after number 2, that way you get to keep your T&Cs but have a bit more time to regroup.

Just read your update sounds very tough.

Yeah @Goldencup … I know. I do know. But you’re making it clear in a sort of politely incredulous tone that you don’t / won’t accept that I do have an OK pension -
obviously not as much as it would be if I worked FT between 22 and 62 or whenever - but (sorry) I’m not going to stress myself to the max throughout my forties and fifties so I can be the wealthiest woman in the cemetery , to paraphrase dickens, it just is not going to happen. Can you please leave it?

Apologies if that is how it comes across good luck whatever you decide.

Sorry that was way snappier than intended. Just feeling a bit bad about my poor mum!

I have to admit that the MN line on pensions has always been a bit alien to me. So (just had a quick google) it is currently just over £200 a week. Clearly that is not a fortune but it is actually only marginally less than I have at the moment after nursery fees are paid and I don’t consider myself to be living in abject poverty. And that’s just the state pension.

Does that £200 (now) cover food, utilities and home maintenance (presuming there will be no mortgage or rent) ? Or is it your spending money after nursery fees ?

Pretty much. I’m not claiming it’s some sort of life of luxury. Clearly it isn’t. But many people survive on less after paying mortgage or rent. If what you want is to retire as early as possible and then enjoy the benefits of that then a state pension won’t do that.

“I understand many men have no choice but to work, but if your wife earns enough or you’re able to make cutbacks to stay home, then I think that’s the kindest thing to do for your child.”

I bet this sentence sounds weird to you.

So we have a similar family set up
OP except that I am the high earning one with a city job and DH is the low earner (a tenth of my salary). Kids are 5 and 2.5.

Our set up is interesting because it’s contrary to gender norms and as a result very different from yours.

The expectation is that I will spend time with the kids (even though I work full time) and that DH will work (even though he earns a fraction of what I do). And when those are the expectations actually a lot of the issues you’ve mentioned fall away.

DH works part time and does more school pick ups, but I do all drop offs except when travelling.

I am senior enough that I can tell work I will log off at 6pm to do bed and bath routine and then log back in later. Obviously sometimes not possible but for the majority of time it is.

we have a cleaner and otherwise share household tasks. I do more of the mental load kid stuff, partly because a lot of it can be done on my commute (medical appointments, scheduling play dates, ordering new clothes); DH does the stuff you need to be physically at home for, like laundry.

You say you are rushed and hassled etc but there will be things that you are doing that could be done by your DH, if he was really motivated to do them (as I am).

We also have a nanny. I think you’ve written this off on the basis that they might be ill, but most people only have a few sick days a year, in which case you’re much better off than sending a kid to nursery where there will be many more sick days than that. A nanny will look after a sick child in their own home and it eliminates pick up and drop off. It’s more expensive but would still cost you less than you giving up work altogether.

I think you said you’re pregnant so you don’t know yet what life is like with 2 DC but it’s absolutely possible for you to continue working and for all of you to be happy. If you really wanted to you could make it work, but the question is whether you want to.

I am sorry about your parents. I had tried to be supportive throughout your thread.

We all have our reasons and demons; mine aren't wholly dissimilar to yours. DF died shortly after retirement and my mother and step have burned through her not insubstantial inheritance. Although mine invented serial divorce when I was 12 and before it was fashionable. My response has always been to 100% shore myself up for emotional and financial security so if the chips were ever down I can rely on just myself. I got lucky; I met DH.

Do what your heart tells you. Enjoy your children. Defer your decision until you can no longer. As I have said many times I loved being a mother, and had 7 wonderful years at home. But I also love work and as dh is a workaholic, my days were very long at home. I think it also broadened me and made our marriage stronger because I had something other than the dc, the house, school, and lunching to talk about.

Good luck. Enjoy your babies and lise yourself in the heavenly scent of newborn head for the time being.

@FolkSongSweet yes and no.

There are similarities in that there’s a difference in income but I do think that’s where the similarities might end!

I think some people have assumed that I’m saying that despite me working three days a week DH does nothing. I’m not actually saying that. Last time DS was too unwell to go to nursery DH had him. There is very little tolerance to me saying I can’t go into work due to an ill child because I only work three days a week. Likewise, once you walk into my workplace it is like the hotel California and you cannot get out again. So - thankfully this has only happened once this year - when you get a phone call to say your child has vomited it’s very stressful. If DH is at home that day it isn’t too bad. If he isn’t, and I can’t get out of work it’s a nightmare.

You say you have a city job so I think you may be somewhere nannies are a bit more plentiful

We did have a cleaner but it created far more problems than it solved.

Some of this is just the nature of having preschool children and I do know that. There isn’t a magical solution. But we did have an exceptionally bad run just before my maternity leave. DS had some sort of viral infection one week. Then he threw up - I don’t actually think he was unwell on that occasion but understandably got sent home. Then a couple of other things.

I idly thought about two and a half years from now and managing that plus a child in reception and it may be hard to manage. Or not.

I wondered if others just got to the point where trying to stay in employment was more hassle than it was worth, which sometimes is how it feels. That isn’t me saying I will do anything drastic, it is just an acknowledgement of the situation we have and how best to manage that I suppose.

Ah @RosesAndHellebores thanks, will do so - think I’ll be a bit more comfortable when he or she is out of me, although I may never sleep again 😂

@Bluewatersummer is the problem that you can’t get a nanny or is it that you think they would be off ill a lot? Because the issues you mention re childcare and illness (which seems to be the main problem for you) completely disappear with a nanny.

If your cleaner is creating problems then get a new cleaner.

And I’m not suggesting your DH does nothing, but I’m willing to bet he could do more than he does.

If you don’t want to work then just own that.

“We did have a cleaner but it created far more problems than it solved.”

how can this possibly be? You pay a cleaner, they come to your house, they clean it. You sound like you are massively over complicating things.

OP, it sounds like to me you actually want to be a SAHM but for some reason don’t want to admit it to yourself. You seem highly resistant to taking on board any of the pages and pages of excellent advice from women who are able to make it work. If you want to give up work, and your dh is supportive, then do it!

and I’m sorry about your mum, it must have been very very tough for you 💐

We found having a SAHP made life so much easier for all of us.

In our case DH was the SAHP.

It also created opportunities for us. I was offered a position in mainland Europe. We went and stayed for 5 years. This wouldn't have been possible if we had both been working.

From what I have seen, childcare problems really start when DCs start school. This is when you can no longer simply throw money at the problem to solve it. INSET days, sports days, sick days, your school is being used as a polling station days, Christmas fares, Summer fetes worse than death. Honestly the list is endless during the primary years.

Our DCs are all now adults so I am looking the other way down the telescope. We did what we did because it worked for us. There is a price to pay in terms of pension but we won't be on the breadline.

I completely agree that childcare is harder at primary than nursery for all of the reasons above. But completely solved by having a nanny.

@FolkSongSweet doesn't having a nanny then create other problems? First, you have to be able to afford not just to employ them but also to house them. You will have to negotiate holidays with them, sick leave for them. Recruit them then recruit their replacement.

For us a nanny simply wouldn't have worked as the salary sacrificed by DH stopping work was less than a nanny would have cost.

“We did have a cleaner but it created far more problems than it solved.”

how can this possibly be? You pay a cleaner, they come to your house, they clean it. You sound like you are massively over complicating things.

In my experience (over the years, not all the same person):
They didn't bother doing half the cleaning.
They would turn up and let themselves in on the wrong day when the alarm was on so I had to come back from work to switch it off because they panicked and couldn't use it/ would phone their boss instead of me - repeatedly.
They would have to cancel at last minute, and having spent ages having got dc to clear their rooms I would then have to hoover them when I got back from work otherwise it wouldn't get done for a month
They change days and times and whether they're bringing someone else or not, which matters when one or two adults are working from home
There were politics within the cleaning firm which gave me a headache about how to proceed and who to ask for

Plus you have to have the whole house reasonably tidy so they can clean - worth it, but not always easy to do when you're living and working there.

If you have a reliable cleaner who does a good job, keep hold of them at any rate!