To not invite friend because of SEN child

[GameOverBoys]

I know I’m going to get roasted here so I will try to give all the information.
Myself and a few friends have been discussing getting a villa for a holiday next summer. There are 5 families all with children aged 6 to 13. We all went to uni together with another friend who has two boys. Her eldest (10 years old) is on the pathway and I feel fairly confident that he is neuro-diverse. Maybe autism or ADHD but has traits of both. So far, we haven’t invited her but now we are looking for villas we need to make a decision if we are going to or not. She is a lovely, sweet woman and we would have no question if it wasn’t for the impact on the group that her eldest has. He is not safe to be left unsupervised with the other kids. In the past there has been constant issues ranging from rough play, making threats and impulsive unsafe actions to punching and throwing things at the others.
He’s very bright, articulate and thoughtful boy and thrives on adult interaction. Away from other kids, I enjoy spending time with him a lot.
During play dates and get togethers we tend to take it in turns to supervise the kids and he is generally much better behaved when watched and any major danger can be stopped. It’s also easy to spot triggers like competitive games. He is also better when there are fewer kids. If we go to a villa (with a swimming pool) supervising him will be impossible and we want to have a break and just let the kids have a bit of freedom. The other children are all old enough and sensible enough to listen to instructions, such as you can’t go to the pool area.
His mother does her best but when she supervises him his behaviour is much worse for her. Her youngest is well behaved so I don’t feel it’s particularly bad parenting, just a stressed out single parent with few resources left to deal with a very hard to parent child. She also has a physical disability which can sometimes stop her being able to intervene. If he was my child I would take him for regular breaks, providing calming strategies, give clear boundaries and follow through but he isn’t and I can tell her how to parent.
I don’t think she realises how bad it is because this has always been her situation, but it’s constant. The group get on so well when he’s not there. There is no need to get involved, other than the occasional requests for food etc and it’s really relaxing. When he is there it is drama the entire time. I think he just doesn’t have the social skills to mix in a big group and he get’s overstimulated. However, I know my friend would be devastated if she thought they were being excluded.

YABU - You are being unreasonable to exclude someone because of SEN

YANBU - You are not being unreasonable to want a relaxing holiday and only invite who you want to

@GameOverBoys I wonder as there’s so many of you, could you offer to pool together resources for a 1:1 nanny/babysitter supervisor for her child ? Obviously it’s impossible to know for me how much it would cost. Then hand her the offer, if financially feasible.
It’s hard with so many children and the possibility of physical violence when some are half his age, so I do understand this (and I work with children in need, I love them but would not allow some in a swimming pool with a child twice as young, for everyone’s benefit, including ‘mine’).
Otherwise as so many adults maybe a rota specific for this child, if he listens to you.
Really harsh for her if left out, although as stated I understand, and you say you already have one family strongly against.
I agree with PP your posts sound a little judgmental but then again you’re trying, so as other posters have said I’d put aside the SEN aspect for now and focus on the practical aspects ie safety.

Why do you need to have the group holiday? Would you be happy to do this at the expense of your friend?

There's 6 of us in a group and I would never consider doing this, I get you want the peaceful holiday but if I cared about someone I just couldn't do this and I think its really shitty of your group to even contemplate it.

Nothing would convince me to risk my child getting hurt for the sake of being inclusive over an entire holiday. I can see how a playdate with a child with agressive tendencies could be workable, but a whole holiday? That sounds like misery for all.

They don’t have to be mutually exclusive, but I still believe parents who don’t have SEN children have absolutely no place judging or commenting on parents who do. They just have no idea.

1 family have said that his presence means they won't attend

Why is everyone suggesting Rotas and babysitting. I work with in a SEN school. I would absolutly nope out of any suggestion that I am doing any work outside of my children on my holiday.

You’re not a shit friend OP, if you were, you’d have no qualms about excluding her. You actually sound really caring and considerate.
but honestly, Keyes a level of self sacrifice none of us should have to make. I work my arse off doing overtime and lunch every penny to afford to take my kids on holiday. Would I do it if it meant I had to have eves in the back of my head to prevent my kids being attacked or injured? No, I wouldn’t. I simply wouldn’t enjoy myself.
a PP made a good suggestion of separate holiday apartments rather than a villa? Everyone has their own space then. I would still make it crystal clear that you won’t be babysitting on holiday though and you want to relax and enjoy yourself.

If he was my child I would take him for regular breaks, providing calming strategies, give clear boundaries and follow through but he isn’t and I can tell her how to parent

I lost all sympathy with you at this. You don’t live your friend’s life, you don’t know her child like she does yet you feel fit to sit in judgement that she is not doing well enough.

Horrible.

I definitely think you should look at a holiday village like the European equivalent of Center Parcs or somewhere with a communal pool but separate accommodation. That way everyone has their own space and also everyone doesn’t necessarily have to do the same things as each other all the time. It’s easier to take a step back from a situation when you’ve got your own place to go back to.

Agree, a group villa holiday doesn't sound like a workable plan in your circumstances. I'd just leave it.

I agree. This doesnt sound like a holiday, it sounds like work. Its hard enough keeping an eye on your own kids on holiday let alone other people's.

So many parents of children with SEN are glossing over the violence here and seem to think that their hurt feelings (and it is theirs alone, there is no need to tell the child they haven't been invited) are far more important than the quite high and proven risk of another child being seriously injured; mind boggling!

A fall from a climbing frame could have been life changing but that would have been ok I guess because at least this child and most importantly of all his mother hadn't been left out of an outing!

Some people can't see past the end of their noses.

Maybe you are better off going for a weekend break to start with. See how you all get on in a different setting 24/7.
You can then safely invite everyone.

This will not be a relaxing holiday so you might all want to reframe your ideas on this. I've done it with 8 kids and just 2 adults and that was pretty miserable just in terms of logistics. Add in another 8 adults and it's going to be hell.

In someways I can understand why you don’t want him there.
However I have been in your friends position I have 2 with SEN/ND. Although neither were ever physical with anyone. They were more loud and talked non stop and would runaround and encourage other children to run around with them making loads of noise

I had upset children when their friends had parties and they weren’t invited. It would upset them that people from groups of friends we had would go out for the day and not invite us.

A lot of the time I would be told how I should discipline my children. But possibly because I too have SENs and ND (diagnosed only a couple of years ago) I instinctively knew that shouting and reward charts and any of the other well meaning advice would never work because I had years of getting the cane everyday at school and being screamed at when I got home for all the mistakes I made and yet I still made the same mistakes over and over.

If your friend finds out you all went on holiday without her then I don’t think the friendship will survive. She will probably never speak to you again.

DS was diagnosed ADHD last month and is on the first lot of meds and he will probably need stronger meds at his next appointment but the difference after a few weeks noticeable.

I wonder if the ds’s assessment for ADHD and him starting meds is going to be before or after the holiday as if he is a few weeks into his first meds he might be a bit calmer and not as much of a problem

She would probably decline of her own accord. She must know it would not suit her child's needs.

For the record, I'm a lone parent and I'm often excluded from friends 'couple outings' etc. I'm sometimes excluded because I have 3 kids and thats far too many for certain activities (such as swimming). I don't get the hump because its just life and I can't get upset because people are enjoying themselves.

This is really difficult. YANBU to want a holiday that’s relaxing and enjoyable; YABU to exclude one member of the friendship group for this reason. And I say this as someone has a ND child - I would be so upset if he was the only one excluded. At the same time, I have a relative with a child who is clearly ND but not managed at all (they don’t even acknowledge that there is an issue). When they visit it is incredibly stressful. As someone who spends much of my time managing my own child and his behaviour, it is beyond frustrating to see someone else letting their child be disruptive and destructive. I would not want it go on holiday with them.

the violent behaviour is something of a red herring in that it sounds like h word went being managed. ND kids need constant monitoring of their play environment.

so your only real options are:

• don’t go on a group holiday
• go but think carefully about the accommodation setup and supervision rota (for all kids not just him)
• go without your friend if you are prepared to lose her

YANBU OP.

It's a very difficult situation and, whatever happens, someone is going to feel upset.

I sympathise with the parents of ND children on this thread who have described how difficult situations like this are for them, and how much they value the support of their friends. However, if it was me having to offer support and extra supervision on my holiday, I'm afraid I just couldn't do it.

My life is harder in different ways and in the past few years I have realised I am allowed time out myself. I have two sets of elderly parents and their spouses who need regular support and I'm a single parent to three children, including two who have had mental health issues. I work full time, despite trying to reduce my working pattern to three 10 hour days a week, so I'm more present for my children, the reality of GP is that I'm actually working more than I was before I reduced my hours.

Many people need a proper break and have a cup that is too empty to pour from.

Yup. As a parent of a child with SEN I agree with this. Yes, there is no support available, it is relentless and lonely. However, the same can be said for parenting NT kids. Parents can and should decide what holiday they are willing to pay for and ultimately it is each parents responsibility to risk review a large group holiday.
There was an SEN parent on this thread that made a comment. Something like, hope your child never has a brain injury. That's not something I would wish on anyone, but this child very nearly caused that to another. There is no acknowledgement of that by the SEN parents screaming ableism on here.

You are so not unreasonable but Christ, this is going to be hard to navigate. If she learns of the trip, she’ll be crushed.

Can you consider hiring a nanny with experience of SEN to look after the group of children (or perhaps that child in particular)? That'd give everyone a break with fewer worries.

If a group of friends did this to me I would never speak to them again.

You don't need to have a big group holiday in one villa. You could go away with one other family and not the whole group bar one. You could all go away but stay in separate accommodation.

There are a lot of ways to have a holiday without doing something so devastatingly cold and hurtful to your friend.

Your poor ‘friend’. I’m sure she already feels excluded by much of society for having a child with additional needs.

At least she can rely on support from her friends. Oh no, wait, she can’t. They’re whispering behind her back about the best way to exclude her from their group holiday so they’re not inconvenienced by her child’s disability. What a nasty bunch of people.

The one thing I'd say op is tell her straight. So many people saying you need to 'sell it to her a certain way'. She's parent of a SEN child and presumably not thick. She'll know exactly why she hasn't been invited, no need to add insult to injury by trying to spin it as though she's excluded for her own benefit.

I think you have just got to bite the bullet and invite them.

No holiday is 100% relaxation when young children are involved anyway. Surely between the whole lot of you you can manage a supervising rota, most people will get plenty of time off for the price of a day or two having to be vigilant.

Adults are entitled to holiday with whomever they like. They’re also entitled to choose to protect their children from an inadequately supervised older child with violent tendencies. It may not be his fault, but the feelings of his mother does not trump the safety of younger children, surely?