To not invite friend because of SEN child

[GameOverBoys]

I know I’m going to get roasted here so I will try to give all the information.
Myself and a few friends have been discussing getting a villa for a holiday next summer. There are 5 families all with children aged 6 to 13. We all went to uni together with another friend who has two boys. Her eldest (10 years old) is on the pathway and I feel fairly confident that he is neuro-diverse. Maybe autism or ADHD but has traits of both. So far, we haven’t invited her but now we are looking for villas we need to make a decision if we are going to or not. She is a lovely, sweet woman and we would have no question if it wasn’t for the impact on the group that her eldest has. He is not safe to be left unsupervised with the other kids. In the past there has been constant issues ranging from rough play, making threats and impulsive unsafe actions to punching and throwing things at the others.
He’s very bright, articulate and thoughtful boy and thrives on adult interaction. Away from other kids, I enjoy spending time with him a lot.
During play dates and get togethers we tend to take it in turns to supervise the kids and he is generally much better behaved when watched and any major danger can be stopped. It’s also easy to spot triggers like competitive games. He is also better when there are fewer kids. If we go to a villa (with a swimming pool) supervising him will be impossible and we want to have a break and just let the kids have a bit of freedom. The other children are all old enough and sensible enough to listen to instructions, such as you can’t go to the pool area.
His mother does her best but when she supervises him his behaviour is much worse for her. Her youngest is well behaved so I don’t feel it’s particularly bad parenting, just a stressed out single parent with few resources left to deal with a very hard to parent child. She also has a physical disability which can sometimes stop her being able to intervene. If he was my child I would take him for regular breaks, providing calming strategies, give clear boundaries and follow through but he isn’t and I can tell her how to parent.
I don’t think she realises how bad it is because this has always been her situation, but it’s constant. The group get on so well when he’s not there. There is no need to get involved, other than the occasional requests for food etc and it’s really relaxing. When he is there it is drama the entire time. I think he just doesn’t have the social skills to mix in a big group and he get’s overstimulated. However, I know my friend would be devastated if she thought they were being excluded.

YABU - You are being unreasonable to exclude someone because of SEN

YANBU - You are not being unreasonable to want a relaxing holiday and only invite who you want to

Have you considered that, when he's with you, he may be masking and so putting huge amounts of effort into behaving as you expect him to? And then, when he's with his mum, he's with his safe person, exhausted and so appears to be much more badly behaved.

To suggest there is a hierarchy of acceptable and unacceptable disability and acceptable or unacceptable ableism is in very poor taste IMO. I don't think this is a thread for me I think I will bow out here

Parents with SEN dc often don't realise what hard work their dc are to be around because they are used to it!

wow 😳

I think the ship has already sailed on this. If you have one family who are very anti because of the previous incident, they are not going to be happy if this child comes whatever accommodations are made. They’ll resent every incident and be looking for trouble. The holiday is already soured.

I’ve done loads of group trips over the years and other people’s children, ND or not, can be a pain. I am sure people thought my kids were a pain at times (I did). I certainly wouldn’t have wanted to spend my holiday supervising them more closely than normal especially if the group plan is to give the kids company and the adults some space. If that makes me a terrible person, I’m sorry but holidays are very precious (and costly).

I hope you can chat with the mum, explain your concerns and point out potential pitfalls. Gauge her response - it might be her idea of hell. She can’t be unaware of the issues? And perhaps suggest a short break (camping, seaside?) that would work for this child that wasn’t as high stakes as a holiday. Maybe she could suggest something that he would love and you could get on board.

The very fact that you’re agonising over this demonstrates you’re a good friend to me.

Parents with SEN dc often don't realise what hard work their dc are to be around because they are used to it!

wtaf? excuse me.
NO-ONE is more aware of how difficult our kids are to be around than us.
You think when i have to lay bare the VERY worst of his behaviour on his DLA and PIP forms that I don't know how much hard fucking work he is, you think after 16 years of fighting for support for his education, dealing with schools when he's been suspended, doing his EHCP, having to accept he can't attend normal college and needs alternative provision post 16, after 16 years of no sleep, when every trip from the house is like planning a military operation.. that i DONT REALISE WHAT HARD WORK my son is?

seriously.. wow. just STFU.

YABU ... you're not her friend. Explain to her that her son is too much hassle for you and try and enjoy your holiday guilt free.

I truly am glad my friends do t treat me and my son the way you are proposing to treat her.

Think for one minute what it is like to BE her- you could help? Offer her respite? But instead you choose to exclude her and her son. You post is enraging for me as a SEN mum and while I don't speak for every SEN parent I'm thinking it maybe for lots.

Just awful

I'm sorry but theres no way I'd be spending my only holiday per year looking after someone else's child (ND OR NT) and worrying that my kids were going to get hurt - its their holiday too and they also have a right to have a relaxing time.

That said, I also wouldnt be going with everyone I knew and excluding one person and her kids as thats extremely hurtful. I dont understand why you have to go away with everyone?- why cant you just go with your own family? If you insist on going all together except one there is no way this isnt going to be hurtful. The simplest solution here is to just have individual holidays. It sounds like one family may drop out if they go anyway so why not just abandon it and have your own holiday. That way, you all get to relax and noone is excluded.

I could not agree more and its bloody heartbreaking. Im fully aware my DC is hard work, used to it, nah.

I don’t think she realises how bad it is because this has always been her situation

Really?! She will be aware, OP.

Urgh I didn't even see that but. You're more than welcome to come to my house and point out how you would parent my SEN child better than I do OP. Patronising bollocks

So much this!

Please… if you do not have children with SEN then you have NO grounds whatsoever to say things like ‘I would do xyz’ if that were my child.

You have NO IDEA and no place to say that… trust me actual parents of SEN children are not going to take you seriously at all, nor does anybody believe you’d actually be a more superior parent in that situation. You have NT kids, you have a far easier and simpler time of things, you are not a more impressive or superior parent. You would struggle in the way same too.

Surely many parents of newborns or babies would feel frustrated if someone without kids judged and commented on the way they are coping and went on about what they will do when they have kids. This is similar but worse.

It’s very, very easy for anyone to say ‘I would do this. I would do that’

Just don’t.

Abso-fucking-lutely!!!!!

Her youngest is well behaved so I don’t feel it’s particularly bad parenting, just a stressed out single parent with few resources left to deal with a very hard to parent child. She also has a physical disability which can sometimes stop her being able to intervene. If he was my child I would take him for regular breaks, providing calming strategies, give clear boundaries and follow through

I was empathetic until this bit.

Which she won’t be able to do as she would have no one to have him

Other issues in your post aside which have been addressed, I think your phrasing is wrong. You're not thinking of not inviting him because he has SEN, it because of his behaviour and the effect it has on others.

That the behaviour is due to or linked with SEN is beside the point.

I would can the idea.

In this position, I'd look at splitting into smaller sub groups and looking for somewhere you can hire say, 3 villas closeish together and meet up, rather than the intensity of 5 or 6 families all in one space. That way he might behave better if he is staying somewhere with part of a smaller group, if its working well you can spend more time together, if not, you can splinter off a bit to allow each family to have a nice time.

im amazed that they think they can take that many kids on holiday together and just all sit around ignoring them while they drink and chatter and that absolute chaos isn't going to ensure, NT kids or not.

Good luck with that (ex teaching assistant here, so not talking out of my arse there either)

I would also try and gently chat to the friend and flag you feel he struggles with the group dynamic & his behaviour becomes too difficult. It may be something she's heard from other angles (eg school, extra curriculurs) and may consolidate a view that means she's more likely to seek support for him.

Well said @neverbeenskiing, I couldn't have said it any better. This is my exact experience.

Exactly. It sounds us all the other adults will need to be especially hyper vigilant to ensure no harm comes to their child. Not much of a holiday.

If the friend is reasonable try talking to her Op, explain the situation and ask if she honestly thinks her son can cope and will be OK around the other children . Hopefully she herself will admit that it isn’t a good environment for him and exclude herself which solves the issue.

I wouldn’t be sharing a villa with a child prone to violent outbursts which is exactly what they are. His not just sulking off somewhere. His throwing things and shoving people.

Sound’s like the family of that little girl would rightly pull out from the trip if this boy was there.

Whether it's the case or not what difference does this make to the practicality? It's unknowable for OP and completely unhelpful to consider.

However a general note, why do people think SEN & poor parenting are mutually exclusive?

Its perfectly possible to have a ND child, who's parents also don't manage it well and make poor choices. Yes in many cases its difficult for an outsider to assess but its perfectly possible. My friend has a DC with ADHD & ASD, some aspects of her DC behaviour are due to SEN but others are in response to seriously inconsistent parenting strategies and a total lack of boundaries being set & imposed.

Since he pushed one of the children that will be going on the holiday on the climbing frame for not moving and she consequently fell - I would take the unpopular decision to meet with your friend and explain you are all going away and her DC is not invited. The focus should be a holiday for everyone at the villa not watching one child.
It may cost you the friendship but issues like this will keep reoccurring and at some point you will have to exclude him/them from activities or holidays. Maybe suggest a more intimate short break with your friend and her DC if you think she needs support and a break.
Also if you tell her that her DC is not invited to the holiday she has the option of seeing if she can arrange for him to stay with her parents or his father or even in respite - then she can join you for quality time with her other DC and her friends